So I'm probably missing something

[Shadowman17]

So there's a player in my group that keeps getting on me about nerfing evocation. Specifically, he wants to restrict spell targeting and blocks. We're running a 9-refresh game with a skill cap of Superb, and I have a couple of wizards in my group. Both of them have Conviction and Discipline as their top skills, and each has one point of Refinement. They can both cast powerful evocations, and they hardly miss. Granted, we've been playing under the assumption that backlash helped targeting, but we've recently changed that. Most of the physical opposition I've had has been fairly fast, with Inhuman or Supernatural speed, but again, the wizards rarely miss unless they're trying something really big. In terms of their skills, I'd rather not restrict how they build their character as long as it seems reasonable (they won't suddenly have Claws at the next Major Milestone), but is something wrong when they rarely miss? Or are they supposed to aim that well?

With blocks, he wants to cut their effectiveness in half, essentially making a standard block cost as much as an armor effect. He had a character (who died today, in fact) that had an enchanted item with a 10-shift block with a large number of uses attached to it. Most things that went against it to damage him couldn't hit it, and his skill was high enough that he could avoid most maneuvers to disarm (until today). He thought that was too powerful, mostly because things couldn't punch through it and hit him.

This is the first game that I've ever GM'd, though we have been playing for a while now. Do I just need stronger opposition for wizards or is there a valid point here? Sorry if this doesn't make any sense/I am just being dumb. This hasn't really been an issue until recently, or at least not one that was brought to my attention. My personal theory is that I need to do a better job of tagging/invoking aspects when they're to my NPCs' advantage defensively, focusing less on directly dealing damage.

[Sanctaphrax]

Wizards are pretty darn strong. Maybe not as strong as they seem, though. I can think of two things that make them seem more powerful than they are.

1. It's very easy to make them stronger when you reinterpret the rules. Magic is complex and it can do almost anything, so it's easy to add capabilities to. You got a taste of this with the backlash targeting thing.

2. They are really easy to optimize. Making an optimized Evoker is as simple as peaking Conviction and Discipline and then pouring as much refinement as possible into one element. To focus that hard as a non-wizard requires a lot more work.

Even ignoring that, though, enchanted item blocks are probably stronger than they should be. I think that the best solution is to cap their power, not to halve it.

[Blackblade]

Maybe try something a little tougher, that can take the hits from a couple of evocation spells without getting taken out, and forces them to take mental consequences if they want to keep casting.  Or maybe larger numbers of enemies, to force them to split their targeting rolls.  Or something nasty that can do mental attacks.

[Shadowman17]

Thanks for these responses. Just a note, my player doesn't want to just halve enchanted item blocks, but all blocks. I think his issue with aiming is that when he looks at the books series, Harry misses with his spells quite a bit. What I'm not sure he understands is that, from a mechanical perspective, Harry's control, and thus targeting, isn't all that great, at least at the start. As stated in Our World, he's got Superb Conviction and only good Discipline, and any of his focus items only give +1 control at best.

As to my opposition, I've already been planning for something both fast and tough. Outside of NPC wizards, which I'm also including, in my upcoming scenario, my philosophy with spell casters so far has been to move first when I can.

[Mr. Death]

I find that compels are a good way to bring any character down to a manageable level once in a while. Honestly? Wizards should be able to blow away a lot of opposition through brute force. That's why they have such a high refresh cost. But there's ways around it.

In a game I'm running, one character is a Warden with Athletics and Weapons both at 5, and somewhat weaker spellcasting ability. So when I want to challenge him, I do things like Compel his Warden aspect to say, "You're going into a night club, you can't really bring the big obvious sword in there," or compel a scene aspect to say, "Okay, this is a narrow walkway, so if you try to leap out of the way of any punches, you're going to fall into the pool. Defend with Fists instead."

[UmbraLux]

Do I just need stronger opposition for wizards or is there a valid point here?

There is a valid point, wizards are the most powerful character type in the game.  Understandable, it is "Dresden Files" after all. 

That said, there are things you can do to compensate.  Lengthen your encounter scenes - mental stress is still a limitation.  Throw a few White Court at them - and emphasize the mental combat when you do.  Use numbers and smaller zones / areas - if the wizard can only hit a few at at time he won't be nearly as effective.  Use hit and run attacks by speedsters inside buildings where walls / zone barriers will break line of sight.  In short, play to the other characters' strengths while reducing the wizards' advantages.

[Shadowman17]

I appreciate the feedback and hope you guys don't mind if I ask an off-topic question I'm my own thread, though it is related tangentially.

In White Night, how did Carlos get his shield up before either of the vamps moved? Both of them should have the initiative, bit Ramirez was able to raise a defense right before one of them started firing. Is there a RAW way to do that?

[wyvern]

RAW, you do that by having an enchanted item provide your defense.

With a bit of homebrew, you do that by giving Ramirez a custom stunt / power / thing that lets him sacrifice his next action to cast a defensive evocation as a defense.  I'd charge -1 for that, and give the resulting evocation a default duration of "until his next action" - so that he can choose to extend the duration via a second evocation if he wants to.

[Aminar]

RAW, you do that by having an enchanted item provide your defense.

With a bit of homebrew, you do that by giving Ramirez a custom stunt / power / thing that lets him sacrifice his next action to cast a defensive evocation as a defense.  I'd charge -1 for that, and give the resulting evocation a default duration of "until his next action" - so that he can choose to extend the duration via a second evocation if he wants to.

Yeah, items to provide defense make a ton more sense.  I'm actually pretty sure Harry's shield works the same way.  Otherwise magic blocks just feel underpowered in game.  That said, It sounds a little like you need to vary up the encounters.  Throw in mooks and enforce the laws of magic. Wizards are balanced by The Laws of Magic more than anything else.   

[Katarn]

A couple ideas:

*Throw some werewolves at them.  It's definitely on the greyer line of the 1st Law, and will force them to pull their punches.
*If they use specific element, choose things that have resistance to their element- not to spite them, but to make it more interesting.
*More opponents than before.  Sure, they take one down, but the other got through.... have a care though, it's easy to accidentally cause TPW.
*Ghouls.  I ran a pair of ghouls against 2 wizards and they nearly won.  Be sure to take advantage of anything with Inhuman abilities (especially anything that can take a punch).
*Other Wizards.  A more unique challenge, in a same vein of combat as them.
*Give <foe> some magical item for (BASIC) defense against magic.

[Vargo Teras]

Throw in mooks and enforce the laws of magic. Wizards are balanced by The Laws of Magic more than anything else.

This is true.  While opponents with Supernatural Speed, particularly if they're also stealthy, can be one way to beat a wizard, they don't really play up the themes of wizardry.  What does is the fact that a mortal with a gun can and should be a dangerous opponent, because the wizard needs to be very careful about how they cast spells around him.  Sure, a blocking spell can hold them off for a time, but you need to think in terms of escaping, not destroying, your enemies.  As Katarn notes, there are also grey areas; lycanthropes, were-critters, or changelings who don't appear inhuman can all pose a supernatural threat while still being shielded by the Laws.

Mechanically, if you have to overcome high defenses, the way to do it is through teamwork and maneuvering.  Most blocks aren't going to be universal defenses; there should be some loophole through which maneuvers, if not attacks, can slip, until one attacker can tag three aspects and pop through.  Mental attacks are a double threat, not only bypassing most defenses (a standard force shield won't do anything to stop them) but also attacking the stress track a wizard needs in order to cast his spells.  If you want to get really nasty, a White Court Virgin with a couple of the upgrades to Incite Emotion could do a lot of damage while still falling under the Laws' protection, and not even making any visible threat.

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, items to provide defense make a ton more sense.  I'm actually pretty sure Harry's shield works the same way.  Otherwise magic blocks just feel underpowered in game.  That said, It sounds a little like you need to vary up the encounters.  Throw in mooks and enforce the laws of magic. Wizards are balanced by The Laws of Magic more than anything else.

I tend to take a looser view of the initiative rules, mainly that whoever throws the first punch or takes the first action gets initiative. As for Harry and Ramirez's shields, they generally block attacks like that when they have at least some idea that the attack is coming, so I look at it, in the books, as if they're holding action, then interrupting the attacker with the shield. In the White Night example, well, Ramirez knew a fight was starting, so he had been gathering power already and when the fight started, just had to pull the trigger, so to speak. Call it a prepared action.

I tend to look at the alertness-based initiative as more an abstraction of "Okay, everyone suddenly runs into everyone. Who's quickest off the draw?" So if Harry and Ramirez had just been walking down the street, turned a corner, and bam, there were the two White Court vamps, then yes, the vamps would've had initiative. But in that formal duel setting, where they all know they're there, they're getting ready, and just waiting for the signal to start, it's more of a crapshoot--so in that one instance, the GM probably let them all just roll their base Alertness (without the speed powers), or had everyone act at once and sorted it out as it came.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I'd treat it as a prepared action.  Basically, like others have said, he knew it was coming and had it readied. 

With initiative, I treat it as whoever starts the conflict having the first action, then everyone else getting initiative from there.

If there are two readied actions, who ever has the highest initiative would get priority.

[UmbraLux]

In White Night, how did Carlos get his shield up before either of the vamps moved? Both of them should have the initiative, bit Ramirez was able to raise a defense right before one of them started firing. Is there a RAW way to do that?

The novels often appear to describe reactive use of magic.  Though it doesn't appear to be allowed by the game. 

From the game text, it pretty much has to be an item as others have mentioned.  Personally, I'm in favor of allowing a caster to sacrifice his next action to block reactively with a rote as a house rule (no stunt required).  Any exchange & spell a wizard uses up defensively is one they're not dropping the magic hammer on an NPC with an attack spell.  In other words, it's a functional nerf without actually reducing capability or choices. 

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think that wizards are the strongest character type. Mandatory The Sight and no rebate powers really cuts down on their sheer brute force level. But they're definitely up there.

I don't understand what your player wants here, Shadowman17. How would halving all blocks make wizards less accurate? Blocks don't even use accuracy.