Author Topic: Who can pop a Containment Circle?  (Read 8577 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Who can pop a Containment Circle?
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2012, 09:41:30 PM »
Nonsense.  You've never swung a sledgehammer at the floor, have you?
Earlking's "hoofs" would be much akin to sledgehammers.

Yes. I've swung sledge hammers, mauls, regular hammers, hockey sticks, baseball bats, lacrosse sticks, shovels, and other similar tools. And do you know what they all have in common? They're all levers, and use leverage to do the work you normally could not do. What is the Erlking bracing himself on so that the force he's using goes into the ground and doesn't just make him jump/recoil?

If you tried stomping on concrete, your foot will give out long before the concrete does.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 10:08:45 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Who can pop a Containment Circle?
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2012, 06:49:15 PM »
Specifically, physical actions on each side of the circle.

There are many ways to visualize the power limits of these Circles, but most germane to this discussion are the following:
a) a cylinder extending an arbitrary distance above the target, but with a floor at the level of the circle
b) a cylinder extending an arbitrary distance above the target, and a shorter but still arbitrary distance below the level of the circle

I think that's taking things a bit farther than the circles are described.  As gamers we look for limits on things so we can exploit them, but in the books a circle is a circle.

Here's how I see it working (based on the sources cited above):
1) If you can't force your way out of the circle via your mystic power (the way the Erlking almost did) then you can't leave the circle.
2) Flying over the circle, tunneling under it, smashing the material the circle is drawn on - that's leaving the circle and you can't do it (see 1 above).
3) Why? Because it's magic.

Okay - I'll expand on point 3.  The circle is a form of threshold, defining the world as "inside" and "outside".  It's not a normal threshold like the type you find on a house, but works metaphysically like a threshold.  When we try to define it further things start to breakdown and questions about burrowing, flying, etc matter, as does "is there plumping under the floor", "is the wiring in the ceiling breaking the circle", and a host of other issues.  Keeping things at "It forms a barrier because it's magic" fits with the way it's shown in the books and the feel of magic in the DV.

Going back to the books:
Toot-toot was imprisoned in a circle that had grass, pebbles, twigs etc in it - but he couldn't pick up a handful of grass and toss it at the circle.  Why? Because he couldn't break the circle.

Maybe if Harry ever does do that "what's a threshold? How is it made?" research we'll learn more, but I have a feeling that he'll be too busy to do it in the next book.


You need leverage to break Concrete like that with sheer pressure. You need something holding you down so that all of the force generated by your pushing is going into the concrete and not being absorbed by your own body. Strong the Erlking or a demon might be, but they've got to work with physics just like anything else.

Leverage amplifies force.  Where you hold the sledgehammer determines how much of a mechanical advantage it gives you.

But if something is strong enough then doesn't need to amplify the force its strenght produces.  Think pile driver coming down and breaking a section of sidewalk - that's how I see someone with Might +10 or higher being able to stamp his foot.  When it comes to smashing things, Might +10 is just Great Might combined with Supernatural Strength - easily doable.

Richard

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Who can pop a Containment Circle?
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2012, 08:39:11 PM »
But if something is strong enough then doesn't need to amplify the force its strenght produces.  Think pile driver coming down and breaking a section of sidewalk - that's how I see someone with Might +10 or higher being able to stamp his foot.  When it comes to smashing things, Might +10 is just Great Might combined with Supernatural Strength - easily doable.

If it's just Great Might + Supernatural Strength, have fun with your instant bird's-eye-view of the neighbourhood.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Who can pop a Containment Circle?
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2012, 08:49:55 PM »
A piledriver is attached to a big honkin' machine that's there to make sure that all, or at least the vast majority, of the force involved goes down into the ground instead of up into the machine itself. You can't say the same about someone's foot. Maybe, if they had the room to rear up and bring their foot down in an arc, but not really if they're just stomping straight down.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Who can pop a Containment Circle?
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2012, 09:03:07 PM »
When it comes to strenght, Jim ignores some of the physics.  For example, he has strong but not tough beings picking up things whose weight should rip their bodies apart.  He has beings punching holes in metal or concrete - when their hands should break before (or with) the concrete.  A human sized creature punching a car shouldn't send the car flying (since it out masses him by so much) but that's how the books show strenght working.

By pile driver, I was thinking something along the lines of a pneumatic drop hammer, but maybe a hydraulic one would be a better example.  A hydraulic pile driver doesn't bounce into space when it is used, and without a creature's internal body being able to function a bit like that (internally braced against the force the creature's strenght produces) trying to punch a concrete wall would send the puncher (who masses less than the wall) flying back.

Richard