Who can pop a Containment Circle?

[Richard_Chilton]

They were physical - they had bodies made of ectoplasm.  They could punch people, kick people, pick up things, move things - but they couldn't break that circle.

Free Will is required to take an action that will break a circle.

Environmental effects (wind, snow, etc) can break a circle, but there is a WoJ to the effect that someone lacking freewill couldn't kick over a can of paint so that the paint runs into the circle (breaking it).

Here's another example: The Erlking is a major being with earthshaking power, but when Harry bound him the Erlking couldn't stamp on the ground so hard that it shook in a way that would disrupt the circle. The Erlking might (or might not) have been able to force his way through the circle but if he couldn't force his way through mystically then there is nothing he can do to damage it physically.

Richard

[devonapple]

"directional facing" of the circle doesn't seem particularily relevant in the standoff in Turncoat.
A circle is formed to keep the tongues out. Person inside is warned not to shoot  out or it will break the circle.

On the other hand a mortal on the outside of the same circle can threaten to break it with a piece of gravel.

I feel that is still consistent with the facing issue. In this situation, a person was protected against supernatural threats by a circle and told not to shoot out, we see circle exclusivity, in which mortals could break the circle, inside or out, but spiritual/summoned creatures could not do anything from the facing side. We don't have data about whether a spiritual/summoned creature on the *inside* facing of the circle could cross it, but we know that later in the scene, spiritual/summoned creatures who are suddenly trapped inside an inward-facing circle, they get cut off and disappear.

Free will is irrelevant. It's whether something is physical, or primarily spectral. If you're fueled and made up of magical energy, you can't break a circle.

I think this is what I'd most likely go with.

Also, the circle's purpose matters, I feel. There are Ward circles which are designed to keep something out or protect an object from an effect. Then there are Containment circles to keep something in.

That said...

Environmental effects (wind, snow, etc) can break a circle, but there is a WoJ to the effect that someone lacking freewill couldn't kick over a can of paint so that the paint runs into the circle (breaking it).

Hrmmm... so even if Binder ordered a summoned goon to throw a chair at a Circle, the goon wouldn't? Was the WoJ clear as to whether the cause was prevented, or the effect?

[Mr. Death]

Ectoplasm =/= physical, for the purposes of a circle. They're made, and fueled, by magic, not physical beings.

The Erlking couldn't shake the ground to break the circle through outside effects because the circle blocks magical effects from leaving the circle. Any earth shaking he could have done would have been limited to the area inside the circle. It'd be like trying to call for help from inside a sound-proof booth. Plus, it was a circle specifically made to contain him.

[computerking]

I hate being explicit in spoilers - even using the tags.  Of course, the scene I'm taking about is

(click to show/hide)

when Harry tries to rescue Sir Stuart from the circle.

(click to show/hide)

If the circle couldn't keep him out, why didn't Harry walk across the circle to help Sir Stuart? Because he couldn't.  The circle was like a wall to him - just like the graveyard walls, Murphy's door, etc.  It was a threshold that he couldn't cross.

As for creatures without Freewill being able to mar a circle, reread why Binder's minions couldn't do that in Turncoat.

As for facing, there is 'in' and there is 'out' and a threshold between them.  If you can't cross the threshold it doesn't matter which way you were going.

Jim has written a few posts about magic circles and what can (and can't) break.  If you search through his transcribed interviews on the WoJ board you can find more on how magic circles work.

Richard

Spoilers for GS Follows:

(click to show/hide)

I don't think the Circle trapping Sir Stuart counts in this discussion, because (as I remember it)  Harry explaied that this particular circle was made by setting fire to Morty's house and having dug a circle in the hard ground. Sir Stuart was trapped because the melting snow made a moat of water around him that he, as a spirit, couldn't cross. Neither could Harry, because he was also a spirit at the time.  This makes that particular circle a special case, utilizing a creature's "weakness".

[devonapple]

Spoilers for GS Follows:

(click to show/hide)

I don't think the Circle trapping Sir Stuart counts in this discussion, because (as I remember it)  Harry explaied that this particular circle was made by setting fire to Morty's house and having dug a circle in the hard ground. Sir Stuart was trapped because the melting snow made a moat of water around him that he, as a spirit, couldn't cross. Neither could Harry, because he was also a spirit at the time.  This makes that particular circle a special case, utilizing a creature's "weakness".

That would be a major difference.

[UmbraLux]

Not sure free will was an issue in the case Richard mentions.  Harry has free will.

[devonapple]

I'm wondering if this is ultimately one of those situations best solved by Declarations, and/or allowing the caster to place Aspects on the ward/container within the Ritual (and if so, at what cost?).

[polkaneverdies]

In stormfront Harry was inside of his circle with a toad demon on the outside. Harry then has spirit of intellect toss him a sports bottle full of love potion. No mention was made of the circle breaking or of having to quickly lower and reraise it.

[devonapple]

In stormfront Harry was inside of his circle with a toad demon on the outside. Harry then has spirit of intellect toss him a sports bottle full of love potion. No mention was made of the circle breaking or of having to quickly lower and reraise it.

Alas, the first few books have numerous elements which are later contradicted in the fiction as Butcher refined the way he handled the supernatural state of things in Harry's world (there is a WoJ acknowledging this) which generally means that the first 2-3 books should be discounted as "canon" for a discussion such as this.

[polkaneverdies]

The contradictions aren't limited to the first couple of books. They are simply more numerous there.
 In my experience examples from the first couple books tend to be treated like canon-lite instead of being completely disregarded.
When there are clear contradictions with more recent texts they are dismissed, but if there aren't I wouldn't suggest assuming that they are wrong.

[Richard_Chilton]

Hrmmm... so even if Binder ordered a summoned goon to throw a chair at a Circle, the goon wouldn't? Was the WoJ clear as to whether the cause was prevented, or the effect?

Like many WoJs it was short of details.

And I currently can't find it.  I know I saw it on the forum a year or more ago, but since the WoJ section became its own board I'm having bad luck finding things.

The Erlking couldn't shake the ground to break the circle through outside effects because the circle blocks magical effects from leaving the circle. Any earth shaking he could have done would have been limited to the area inside the circle. It'd be like trying to call for help from inside a sound-proof booth. Plus, it was a circle specifically made to contain him.

I'm not talking about using a magical effect on the circle.  I'm talking about bringing his foot down with incredible force on the earth inside of the circle, enough force to cause the ground to split - which would break the circle.  The Erlking can toss a car around and perform other vast displays of strenght, but he can't perform an action that can physically break an active circle.

Richard

[computerking]

Like many WoJs it was short of details.



I'm not talking about using a magical effect on the circle.  I'm talking about bringing his foot down with incredible force on the earth inside of the circle, enough force to cause the ground to split - which would break the circle.  The Erlking can toss a car around and perform other vast displays of strenght, but he can't perform an action that can physically break an active circle.

Richard

Perhaps the circle renders the ground as impenetrable to the Erlking as the circle is. Breaking the circle by stomping the ground is as antithetical to the expectations of a Circle as a spirit burrowing out of it would be. (In short, I'm agreeing with you on this example, Richard, just not the one in the Spoiler blocks earlier)

[Becq]

The novels are a bit inconsitent on this subject, and the rules are a bit vague.  (Or nonexistent?)  Therefore I pull the following out of nowhere in an attempt to capture the spirit of the latter portions of the series, purely as a house rule (this actually derives from a previous discussion found at http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php?action=post;topic=30822.15;last_msg=1306527):

Create the following hypothetical new stuntlike power:

Empower Magic Circle [-1]  The character adds the Empower Magical Circle trapping to their Lore skill.  This trapping allows the character to make a Lore declaration to change an existing scene aspect such as "Circle drawn in chalk" into a special scene aspect such as "Magic Circle drawn in chalk" -- and have it be true.  [Optionally, the GM might decide that the character can spend one mental stress to cause the circle to be treated as a threshold with a rating of half the character's Conviction (round up, minimum 1)].

Discourage anyone from actually buying this power/stunt (except spellcasting characters, who are considered to have it for free), but allow it to be 'borrowed' in accordance with the Temporary Powers rules (YS92) by spending a Fate point.  Once used, the scene aspect is treated as a 'fact' that triggers compels against the high concept of creatures that are affected by magic circles as described below.

• Purely supernatural creatures (ghosts, demons, etc) cannot break the circle; this is treated as a compel against their high concept if the circle prevents them from acting in accordance with their nature/goals.
• Other non-mortal creatures with material bodies (vampires, etc) are reluctant to break the circle; treat this as a compel as above, but the creature can buy off the compel.
• Mortal creatures with or without supernatural powers can break the circle freely (no compel).

If any creature breaks the circle (by penetrating the barrier, either personally or with an object), the circle is disrupted and the scene aspect is removed.  However, if circle was disrupted by a creature possessing supernatural (or magical) powers, their powers are temporarily weakened: attach the aspect "Violated a Circle" to the creature to represent this.  This aspect can be tagged/invoked for a bonus against any use of the creature's powers (for example, resistance against spells cast by the affected creature or attempts to injure a creature with supernatural armor).  Those inside the circle can break it freely with no adverse effects (other than the circle breaking).

Note that all of this is a long-winded way of saying that the player can do something to make a special declaration (justifing a creature-appropriate high-concept compel) and perform a scene maneuver (that conditionally penalizes powers) for the cost of a Fate point and an action.

[Tedronai]

Specifying that non-mortal creatures with material bodies 'can' buy off the compel is entirely unnecessary.  ANY character with sufficient available FP can buy off ANY compel.

[Becq]

Specifying that non-mortal creatures with material bodies 'can' buy off the compel is entirely unnecessary.  ANY character with sufficient available FP can buy off ANY compel.

While I agree that that is what the mechanics say, I guess I'm basically saying that this is a non-standard compel.  After all, my understanding is that purely supernatural creatures (such as ghosts) cannot pass magical barriers, no matter how much Fate they have to spend.

Some beings—especially those of pure spirit—cannot cross a threshold, since they’re usually using their magical power to hold their material world body together. If they cross a threshold without counteracting it, they just… melt.

Such a creature who had access to an acceptable way of countering the circle could do so; this would probably work like a maneuver to remove the circle (at which point there is no circle to stop them from doing as they please any way...)