Who can pop a Containment Circle?

[devonapple]

The players made a Containment circle to trap some Malks that had been terrorizing a local park, and were later joined by some Winter-aligned Redcaps. We came to a bit of a disagreement over whether or not the Redcaps (outside the Containment circle) could break the circle and let the Malks out if they had wanted.

Disputes seemed to center around two questions:
Does it merely take free will to pop a containment circle?
Is a Containment circle, intended as it is to keep something in, vulnerable to attack/disruption from outside tampering?

[CottbusFiles]

Free will has nothing to do with the cirlce itself.

A circle build to contain something can easily be disturbed by the outside. The redcaps could in fact have destroyed the circle. If it is a special made anti-fey circle this might be something else.

[UmbraLux]

My answer (don't have the book handy to confirm):  Circles, like all thaumaturgy, rely on setting up symbols to channel power.  If those symbols are disrupted the spell is weakened and may fail.  In general, ward type symbols are protected from one side by the ward itself.  The other side of the ward is open (usually).

A simple circle with a rating equal to Lore might be disrupted by anything breaking the circle.  A more extensive ward might have several keystones, runes, or other symbols to break for complete failure.

[devonapple]

If it is a special made anti-fey circle this might be something else.

It was a fae-specific containment circle, baited for Malks (that was one of the Lore declarations, anyway). Two PC Wizards, a tactical/ward specialist and a fae lore specialist, collaborated in its construction

[computerking]

Was it specifically made to keep Fae in and out? That sort of thing would probably need to be declared beforehand...

[devonapple]

It was definitively meant to keep Fae in (and I was going to give it a chance to inadvertently trap some rival Summer Court Dryads as well, but opted not to).

In future, should one want to make a circle to keep things in *and* out, that would be the equivalent of two separate circle rituals, I guess?

[UmbraLux]

Yeah, I'd either split shifts between the two or make it two separate rituals.

[Richard_Chilton]

In the books, you need Free Will before you can break a circle.  For example, in Ghost Story:

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There was someone trapped in a containment circle and Harry couldn't walk across the circle to help him.

.

Another example: in the first book, Harry goes into his inscribed summoning circle (i.e. one meant to contain what's summoned) and Mr. Toad demon couldn't cross it to get to him.

Why does a magic circle work this way? Because either way you look at it, a circle is a threshold.  It divides the world as "things inside the circle" and "things outside the circle" with the circle as the threshold that defines which is which.  Cross the threshold and you are changing your definition of "this" to "that".

In the game system... Circles aren't very well defined, but I would still go with them working both ways.

Richard

[Tedronai]

Another example: in the first book, Harry goes into his inscribed summoning circle (i.e. one meant to contain what's summoned) and Mr. Toad demon couldn't cross it to get to him.

This can also be explained by the distinction between the directional 'facing' of the circle.
That circle was closed with the express intent to keep something OUT, but we don't really know whether it would have been able to simultaneously keep anything IN (assuming that that thing would have been stopped by a circle at all).

[devonapple]

In the books, you need Free Will before you can break a circle.  For example, in Ghost Story:

My apologies: while you're spoiler-cutting, can you give me more particulars from that scene? I read the book, but I can't recall the scene you are offering.

[CottbusFiles]

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He can't break a circle because he is a spirtual being at this point. He has no physical form or whatever to break it with. No force, no breaking.I think we are talking about Sir Stuart trapped in the circle after the 2. attack on mortys house. Eihter way, Harry had free will at this point. 

Free will has absolutely nothing to do with, even a falling leaf can break a circle

[polkaneverdies]

"directional facing" of the circle doesn't seem particularily relevant in the standoff in Turncoat.
A circle is formed to keep the tongues out. Person inside is warned not to shoot  out or it will break the circle.

On the other hand a mortal on the outside of the same circle can threaten to break it with a piece of gravel.

I would say that free will or a large amount of power are necessary.

[Tedronai]

"directional facing" of the circle doesn't seem particularily relevant in the standoff in Turncoat.
A circle is formed to keep the tongues out. Person inside is warned not to shoot  out or it will break the circle.

On the other hand a mortal on the outside of the same circle can threaten to break it with a piece of gravel.

The point was whether or not something that would be stopped by the circle if it were 'faced' in the appropriate direction would be affected by an otherwise identical circle 'facing' in the direction opposite theirs
ie. if a creature identical to one currently trapped inside a circle would be able to break that circle from the outside

that issue seems to have been resolved with the reference to Ghost Story, but I don't have my books handy, so I can't check the details for myself

[Richard_Chilton]

I hate being explicit in spoilers - even using the tags.  Of course, the scene I'm taking about is

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when Harry tries to rescue Sir Stuart from the circle.

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He can't break a circle because he is a spirtual being at this point. He has no physical form or whatever to break it with. No force, no breaking.I think we are talking about Sir Stuart trapped in the circle after the 2. attack on mortys house. Eihter way, Harry had free will at this point. 

Free will has absolutely nothing to do with, even a falling leaf can break a circle

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If the circle couldn't keep him out, why didn't Harry walk across the circle to help Sir Stuart? Because he couldn't.  The circle was like a wall to him - just like the graveyard walls, Murphy's door, etc.  It was a threshold that he couldn't cross.

As for creatures without Freewill being able to mar a circle, reread why Binder's minions couldn't do that in Turncoat.

As for facing, there is 'in' and there is 'out' and a threshold between them.  If you can't cross the threshold it doesn't matter which way you were going.

Jim has written a few posts about magic circles and what can (and can't) break.  If you search through his transcribed interviews on the WoJ board you can find more on how magic circles work.

Richard

[Mr. Death]

It's not about free will. Binder's minions were spectral. It's about physically breaking it. Random bits of debris has no free will, and yet Harry makes sure to clear off his circle in his lab before he runs a spell.

Free will is irrelevant. It's whether something is physical, or primarily spectral. If you're fueled and made up of magical energy, you can't break a circle.