Test Readers - Limits

[MClark]

Hi,

I understand that test readers are supposed to do things such as mark up where when the action is confusing, highlight the adverbs, make a notation "pass." (or some such) for passive voice, or say a character or scene is extraneous and could be cut.

If they start re-writing phrases and sentences (sometimes making them flow better) does that make them co-authors, or is it just accepted that test readers get excited and stick their oar in the water occasionally? 

[Aminar]

The important part of being an author is your own creativity, your ideas, characters, worlds, plots, etc. If they fudge a few sentences or scenes that's fine(or at least that's how I'd look at it.)

I mean, editors are never put as co-authors.

[Shecky]

Hi,

I understand that test readers are supposed to do things such as mark up where when the action is confusing, highlight the adverbs, make a notation "pass." (or some such) for passive voice, or say a character or scene is extraneous and could be cut.

If they start re-writing phrases and sentences (sometimes making them flow better) does that make them co-authors, or is it just accepted that test readers get excited and stick their oar in the water occasionally?

How about neither? It's simply a suggestion that "X is sort of limpy; maybe Y will fix that". That's neither co-authorship nor oar-sticking - just a suggestion.

And what's with the adverb highlighting?

[Aminar]

I'd guess MClark saw the recent discussion on adverbs and was referencing it.

[Shecky]

I'd guess MClark saw the recent discussion on adverbs and was referencing it.

I figured that part. What I didn't get is how it became an issue in the first place; correct usage and awareness of the reader solves any potential problem with adverbs.

[MClark]

I figured that part. What I didn't get is how it became an issue in the first place; correct usage and awareness of the reader solves any potential problem with adverbs.

Yes I did see the adverb discussion.

Sometimes I just get in a rush to get the words in and one of those -ly buggers slips in, so I included it as something for test readers to highlight.

[meg_evonne]

Yes I did see the adverb discussion. Sometimes I just get in a rush to get the words in and one of those -ly buggers slips in, so I included it as something for test readers to highlight.

I took your adverb comment to mean an editor who highlighted adverb series. I think they are frowned upon, but can really be fun to write. So if someone highlighted a series, I'd take that to mean they didn't think it was as funny as I did.

As to your initial question, I know that I can easily cross the line and have to force myself to abstain based on the writer's experience level. This is hard to do in an online class; far easier when I have the chance to edit my responses judiciously the next day or sometimes more days before forwarding them off.

See, here is the problem with deep, gut wrenching painful edits in full brutality---you can learn a hell of a lot faster with the knife. Yet, the knife can literally kill and hurt someone that you really know can be a terrific writer. The knife too soon, and for you personally from the sounds of it,  can blunt the creative urge, and even cut it out. Too often college professors, who are frustrated writers, can famously fall into this category. The same type of prof can edit an author's voice into their own assumption of how it should be--to the true detriment of the author!

If however you can take it for what was graciously given---a huge amount of your test reader's time and talent, then you will value it, even if turns out to be a bunch of crap in your opinion right now.

I know of at least one published author who was asked, "Why did this edit finally do the trick to get an agent?"

The answer was a heartfelt humility. "When absolutely no agent would look at it for over a year, I went back to those people who read and edited my work and took the time to crit it and then re-read them. This time, I listened and I changed--not only how I edited the manuscript, but how I wrote so I didn't repeat the same mistakes."  I would surmise that if that same author continues to follow what was learned through those knife cuts, they will have several more books published. If they don't, and they fall back on what they were doing earlier, they will ultimately fail.

One more thing for you to consider when you ask test readers to crit, give them an idea of what you want and your level before they agree to read your work. If you are a beginning writer, then tell them and don't be disappointed when they turn you down for now. See, I have these alien freaky times when I simply want to edit the crap out of stuff. They are gifts for heaven for my own work, but far more difficult for other writers to accept. Also, I have limited time, and if you really want me to crit/edit your work and take the time to do so, then don't send me more of the same level of work the next time. It shows me that you didn't learn from it, you didn't listen, or you didn't care about my opinion. My time is valuable and if you love what I edit and you keep sending me more of the same to do the same? Then it's time you paid me for my work.

EVEN In that case, if I loved your work, I would continue to do it--but I'd have to really love it to drag me away from my own writing and editing. :-)

This explanation is like the chemistry teacher who sat down on his kid's bed thrilled to discuss the full facts about the Elements, but after an hour of boring the kid, he says, "But what does that have to do with Elephants?" So if I've bored you.... try reading it again in a couple years.  :-)

Hugs and enjoy your writing!

[Starbeam]

Hi,

I understand that test readers are supposed to do things such as mark up where when the action is confusing, highlight the adverbs, make a notation "pass." (or some such) for passive voice, or say a character or scene is extraneous and could be cut.

If they start re-writing phrases and sentences (sometimes making them flow better) does that make them co-authors, or is it just accepted that test readers get excited and stick their oar in the water occasionally? 

For the most part, this all tends to be my copyedit stuff.  Some, like confusing action, extraneous characters/scenes, characters acting out of character-that would be more story editing.  But if someone's rewriting what you wrote-they're doing it wrong.  There's a book by Piers Anthony, But What of Earth, where you can see what bad copyeditors/editors can do to a book--the annotated version tells what was changed.  *must remember to get a copy of that for myself*  Plus, you'll find different people give critiques different ways, and you just have to find someone who's a match to you.  Myself, I generally tend more toward almost nitpicky stuff, pointing out awkward sentences, unclear details, and small inconsistencies.  Ask Kali-I gave her something of a crit a couple months ago. (must remember to finish that)

As for doing all this--I would suggest not sending to readers until you've got a pretty solid story. Otherwise you might end up listening too much and turning the story into something that's not what you want.  Though you want to have built up a thick enough skin that seemingly-harsh critiques don't get to you. 

Hopefully, this will make sense. Posting at lunch doesn't always.

[Shecky]

For the most part, this all tends to be my copyedit stuff.  Some, like confusing action, extraneous characters/scenes, characters acting out of character-that would be more story editing.  But if someone's rewriting what you wrote-they're doing it wrong.  There's a book by Piers Anthony, But What of Earth, where you can see what bad copyeditors/editors can do to a book--the annotated version tells what was changed.  *must remember to get a copy of that for myself*  Plus, you'll find different people give critiques different ways, and you just have to find someone who's a match to you.  Myself, I generally tend more toward almost nitpicky stuff, pointing out awkward sentences, unclear details, and small inconsistencies.  Ask Kali-I gave her something of a crit a couple months ago. (must remember to finish that)

As for doing all this--I would suggest not sending to readers until you've got a pretty solid story. Otherwise you might end up listening too much and turning the story into something that's not what you want.  Though you want to have built up a thick enough skin that seemingly-harsh critiques don't get to you. 

Hopefully, this will make sense. Posting at lunch doesn't always.

All I know for sure about this is my experience with Jim. His stable of beta readers is... eclectic, to say the least. Everyone has a unique perspective and a particular skillset that they bring to the table. Does Jim incorporate every reaction/suggestion? HELL no. That would bastardize the snot out of his work. But I've seen the man take all sorts of commentary into account, and he often uses that commentary to modify his own work.

That's the key to writer/beta relationships: you don't have to accede to each and every thought or suggestion, but it's a certainty that at least some of them are going to be dead on the money, so they're absolutely worth taking a good look. And since the writer's the one in charge of the gestalt, he's the one who decides what to use and HOW to use it; sometimes, a comment's usefulness is in how it makes you rethink what you did but decide to stand behind it - i.e., it makes you clearer on exactly WHY you did what you did. Jim's a freaking master at orchestrating the whole thing in this regard.

Moral of the story: don't pigeonhole or muzzle your test/beta readers, but don't act like their every comment is a dictum from On High. It's a balancing act.

[LizW65]

My understanding of beta readers is that they are there to point out factual or continuity errors, plot holes you can drive a truck through, and inconsistencies of character/tone.  They are not supposed to correct grammar and spelling or change characters' names and plot points they dislike.  (If I'm wrong here, please correct me; that's all I had the beta readers on my first completed novel do, and I found attempts to do anything else fairly annoying.)

[Starbeam]

All I know for sure about this is my experience with Jim. His stable of beta readers is... eclectic, to say the least. Everyone has a unique perspective and a particular skillset that they bring to the table. Does Jim incorporate every reaction/suggestion? HELL no. That would bastardize the snot out of his work. But I've seen the man take all sorts of commentary into account, and he often uses that commentary to modify his own work.

That's the key to writer/beta relationships: you don't have to accede to each and every thought or suggestion, but it's a certainty that at least some of them are going to be dead on the money, so they're absolutely worth taking a good look. And since the writer's the one in charge of the gestalt, he's the one who decides what to use and HOW to use it; sometimes, a comment's usefulness is in how it makes you rethink what you did but decide to stand behind it - i.e., it makes you clearer on exactly WHY you did what you did. Jim's a freaking master at orchestrating the whole thing in this regard.

Moral of the story: don't pigeonhole or muzzle your test/beta readers, but don't act like their every comment is a dictum from On High. It's a balancing act.

Yeah, that's essentially what I'd meant with my suggestion on not going to a writing group/beta readers too early.  Both story wise and as a writer--you don't want to end up taking what people comment as set in stone.  Although a couple of the stories I'd heard of people doing that were that they were in groups with published authors and took to heart instead of listened and decided what worked best.  Also why I suggest waiting til the story is pretty well formed--that way you're able to flesh it out and get it to the point you want, without people making suggestions of what to do before you even have any idea of your own.  That's pretty much why the only part of my WiP that people end up seeing is the first chapter--it's the only really concrete part of the story, so far.  Though with my luck, that'll be what I have people suggesting I cut.

[Shecky]

My understanding of beta readers is that they are there to point out factual or continuity errors, plot holes you can drive a truck through, and inconsistencies of character/tone.  They are not supposed to correct grammar and spelling or change characters' names and plot points they dislike.  (If I'm wrong here, please correct me; that's all I had the beta readers on my first completed novel do, and I found attempts to do anything else fairly annoying.)

There are no rules concerning the writer/beta relationship. In Jim's case, nobody's actually changing anything; they're simply making suggestions. With my grammarnaziism, I point out misspellings, grammar faux pas, reference issues, etc. - the purely mechanical stuff - all the time. But Jim primarily asks us 3 things:

1) What did you like and why? He wants specifics.
2) What did you dislike and why? Same as above.
3) Any other comments or concerns.

For Jim, that approach seems to work pretty well - he's apparently comfortable with it and has made use of a lot of suggestions. Sometimes, he responds with "No, and here's why I did it this way," followed by an in-depth explanation of all the whys and wherefores of the particular point. All of which helps US help HIM on later chapters - we get a better idea of where he's going with things, either specific or general, so we can better frame our responses within that context.

... okay, you'll see Jim's LJ comment soon enough, so here goes: one of the things he's been doing since GS was completed is "auditioning" new worlds. He's written a number of chapters each in a Black Company-inspired world (BC being perhaps the seminal work in military fantasy - at least, in medievalesque military fantasy) and in a steampunk world. Now, I am not a big fan of steampunk. I've never been OPPOSED to it, mind you, just not a huge fanboi of it. But this one is pushing buttons I didn't even know I had. A number of us have been practically squeeing over aspects we're really enjoying, and either we've gotten to know his writing so well that we automatically expect how some things will play out OR he's incorporating our squeeifying into his writing.

All of that is only to say that the writer/beta relationship is a very individual thing. But, in my experience with Jim, I tend to believe that if a writer is truly open to suggestions and comments as Jim is, his writing can become just that little bit better... which is the whole point of having readers.

[MClark]

Whoa nelly, lots of replies. I don't think I can sort thru them all specifically.

I think of beta reader is there to test such things as plot, characters, continuity, and action scenes, grammar. Which pretty much agrees with most of the comments here. As a writer gains in skill, they should be able to fix most things on the first draft or maybe even the zero'th draft. Grammar issues should drive towards zero, but another set of eyes always helps.

Thanks for all the replies.

[The Deposed King]

Whoa nelly, lots of replies. I don't think I can sort thru them all specifically.

I think of beta reader is there to test such things as plot, characters, continuity, and action scenes, grammar. Which pretty much agrees with most of the comments here. As a writer gains in skill, they should be able to fix most things on the first draft or maybe even the zero'th draft. Grammar issues should drive towards zero, but another set of eyes always helps.

Thanks for all the replies.

You know if you go to Baen's Bar you can get test readers that post pretty much whatever hits them.  And its a varied bunch.  If they like or hate you you'll get a comment.  ITs might be utter drek that does nothing but drag you down.  It might be the most wonderful piece of helpful advice you've ever seen.

That's what i'd call the open form.

then there is a more closed circut.  Its where you take people you select.  You family, brother/sister, friend or what have your.  Or like with shecky.  You invite people you know a little bit about online and you have a select group.  It can be anywhere from 1+.  And they really help you.

Back in 04-06 I had the best test reader I've ever met.  I lost her e-mail and haven't seen her on the Bar since.  But I've got to say I wish I still had her number.  I would beg her on bended knee, to help me finish my Military Insect Story she was so helpful.  Sometimes when you're just starting you don't realize what you had until its gone. I knew she was awesome but now looking back I am appreciating her even more.

Alas work, family and general discouragement slowed me to a stop.

I'm back on the saddle as of now.  And hope to bang out book two in my Spine-Ward Sector's series.  Or whatever the end name turns out to be.  I had last month and I hope to have this month just for writing.  I might need to get a new job which would cut in to my free time but as of right now I'm in the saddle.

I'm trying to give what advice I can on my blog, where you can follow me as I first write my books and then later chronicle my process of going through amazon:  http://aspiringauthor1.blogspot.com/


The Deposed King