Black Council "Recruitment" [GS Spoilers]

[Gman]

I can see Harry's mom as an early plotter into the BC. A BC that might have been more altruistic in the beginning and was quickly corrupted by more sinister members. That could suggest that a controlled use of outsiders was a possible plan of action.

Perhaps the BC started out more altruistic or not. I think they recruit useful idiots and idealists besides the evil black hat types. Kumori seemed the misguided idealist who is being a useful idiot. Maggie may have been recruited and by the time she figured out how bad they were it was too late and she was being hunted by everyone.

[airyie]

Meh.  And here I came into the thread thinking you would mention the odd implications of Grevane and Corpstaker in DB....

[TheCuriousFan]

Meh.  And here I came into the thread thinking you would mention the odd implications of Grevane and Corpstaker in DB....

What odd implications are you talking about? That the Darkhallow ritual was supposed to be a team effort? Something else?

[Starshine]

Though we cant be sure if Mavra's a team player or just playing teams against each other yet from the way Kincaid discribes her as world class bad news i'd be hesitant to write her off as a cats paw yet...remember we are getting this from a mercanary who was the right hand of Vlad Drakul for a time who can apparently take on Mab power wise. I figure Kincaid knows what he's talking about.

That's true - but taken in context he might have just been trying to impress on Dresden how dangerous she could be so he wouldnt underestimate her.

Black Court vampires are supposed to be highly skilled in black magic - that makes them all very dangerous - not just Mavra.  And only the strongest/most dangerous ones survived the purges.  The only other BC vamp I remember was in the short story where Thomas got attacked in the shopping mall.  That was a very young vamp and she nearly kicked Harry's butt, so I think all BC vamps are very strong and highly dangerous.  I dont know if Mavra is any stronger than any other BCV.

So she certainly could be real BC - but I tend to think not.  She doesnt seem to have quite the same level of power or knowledge of someone like Cowl or Ferrofax [who I think are BC definitely.  Plus in DB she was working against the interests of Cowl, which works if you think she's an agent who can be used by BC to stir up trouble, without her being aware of all of their plans/plots.

[TheCuriousFan]

That was a very young vamp and she nearly kicked Harry's butt, so I think all BC vamps are very strong and highly dangerous.  I dont know if Mavra is any stronger than any other BCV.

To be fair, she caught him without his duster, staff or blasting rod and Thomas without a weapon.

And vamps seem to get stronger the older they get, Mavra's probably pretty damn powerful, didn't she only consider a knight of the cross (Michael in GP) an "interesting challenge"?

[Starshine]

To be fair, she caught him without his duster, staff or blasting rod and Thomas without a weapon.

True.

And vamps seem to get stronger the older they get, Mavra's probably pretty damn powerful, didn't she only consider a knight of the cross (Michael in GP) an "interesting challenge"?

But how much of that was bravado?  i dont remember her being unaffected by the light of the sword.

[Mercutio]

I may be Micheal biased, but I think he could have torn her in two back when he was a Fist of God. He has none of his reasons for holding against Denearians... she's a dead body fueled by dark power, kill IT.  (She also has a novels worth of weakness's he can take advantage of.)

[Gman]

To be fair, she caught him without his duster, staff or blasting rod and Thomas without a weapon.

And vamps seem to get stronger the older they get, Mavra's probably pretty damn powerful, didn't she only consider a knight of the cross (Michael in GP) an "interesting challenge"?

I think Michael in his prime as a KotC could defeat Mavra. Michael chopped up Sirothrax the Dragon. That got Ferrovax's attention and respect, Ferrovax he could wipe the floor with Mavra without breaking a sweat. The swords seem to power you up and negate the enemies advantages and put you on equal footing.

[Arjan]

The sword would be very effective against Mavra because it is also a holy symbol. But only when used in the right circumstances.

[Drulinda]

That's true - but taken in context he might have just been trying to impress on Dresden how dangerous she could be so he wouldnt underestimate her.

  I dont know if Mavra is any stronger than any other BCV.

So she certainly could be real BC - but I tend to think not.  She doesnt seem to have quite the same level of power or knowledge of someone like Cowl or Ferrofax [who I think are BC definitely.  Plus in DB she was working against the interests of Cowl, which works if you think she's an agent who can be used by BC to stir up trouble, without her being aware of all of their plans/plots.

Would not that first part mean that she should indeed not be underestimated 

No sadly Jim hasnt given us anyone else in the court to compare her to

Mavra's been pretty quite about her power level. Remember how in BR Eb  thought she just had a little skill with dark magic? she trained a small timer like Bianca to face off a wizard like Harry with some scary spells which probably refect on some of the stuff she knows but hasnt been seen doing.

Also Ferro is in the same league as Mab (maybe even a little stronger) so unless Cowl or Mavra pull of a power ritual theres no comparing either of them to someone like Ferro. Based on the power thats been demonstrated by the two, we cant really make a judgment one whos  stronger at the moment.

Im not exactly sure what you mean in the last part, if Cowls BC and Mavra were an agent to stir up trouble then why does it make sense that the BC would send her to mess up his trip to Godhood? 

 Wouldnt that mean that A) Mavra is a Backstabbing BC member B) someone one the outside who trying to screw stop them, or C) shes a BC member taking orders from the higher ups which even Cowl doesnt know of hence Cowl too is a Pawn who does not know anything or D) Cowl is not actually BC and Mavra was sent to stop them in their interests?

[Starshine]

Would not that first part mean that she should indeed not be underestimated 

What I meant was it was more like he's saying - Be very careful - dont get careless or drop your guard kind of thing.  At least that was the way I took it.

No sadly Jim hasnt given us anyone else in the court to compare her to

Im hoping we might see some more in Book 15.

Mavra's been pretty quite about her power level. Remember how in BR Eb  thought she just had a little skill with dark magic? she trained a small timer like Bianca to face off a wizard like Harry with some scary spells which probably refect on some of the stuff she knows but hasnt been seen doing.

Also Ferro is in the same league as Mab (maybe even a little stronger) so unless Cowl or Mavra pull of a power ritual theres no comparing either of them to someone like Ferro. Based on the power thats been demonstrated by the two, we cant really make a judgment one whos  stronger at the moment.

See, my impression based on what we've seen so far is Cowl is stronger than Mavra.  His powers seem far vaster - he put up a much bigger fight the times we've seen him than Mavra did in the homeless shelter.  Yes, she got away, but my impression of Cowl is he wouldnt have run that quickly.  For instance, in WN, instead of retreating when Dresden was getting the upper hand, he called in the ghouls.  But this is just my impression.

Im not exactly sure what you mean in the last part, if Cowls BC and Mavra were an agent to stir up trouble then why does it make sense that the BC would send her to mess up his trip to Godhood? 

Sorry I didnt explain that well - let me try again.  I agree with the op who said they see the actual BC members as a small tight-knit group who tend to use agents to accomplish their aims.  These agents probably know only what they need to and not the Big Picture - and may be total dupes [I have the feeling the Red King was egged on to prepare for war against the wizards but never really told the truth about the BC or their ultimate aims.].

The way I see Mavra [based on what Ive read so far] she is more another pawn/dupe/catspaw they can use as needed.  I think they tell her as much or as little as they need to in order to get her to act the way they want her to act.  IOW she is being manipulated by them.  But that doesnt mean she is ALWAYS  working for them, or has any idea of the big picture.  She's not in their confidence to any great extent.  And when they dont have a "job" for her, she's on her own.

I think in DB she was on her own and wanted the book for herself.  My point was if she was BC herself, she would have realized Cowl was getting the book for them and wouldnt have risked involving Dresden.

But like I said - Im not entirely sure about Mavra.  The only 2 I think are BC for sure are Cowl and Ferrofax.

[Drulinda]

What I meant was it was more like he's saying - Be very careful - dont get careless or drop your guard kind of thing.  At least that was the way I took it.

Im hoping we might see some more in Book 15.

See, my impression based on what we've seen so far is Cowl is stronger than Mavra.  His powers seem far vaster - he put up a much bigger fight the times we've seen him than Mavra did in the homeless shelter.  Yes, she got away, but my impression of Cowl is he wouldnt have run that quickly.  For instance, in WN, instead of retreating when Dresden was getting the upper hand, he called in the ghouls.  But this is just my impression.

Sorry I didnt explain that well - let me explain try again.  I agree with the op who said they see the actual BC members as a small tight-knit group who tend to use agents to accomplish their aims.  These agents probably know only what they need to and not the Big Picture - and may be total dupes [I have the feeling the Red King was egged on to prepare for war against the wizards but never really told the truth about the BC or their ultimate aims.].

The way I see Mavra [based on what Ive read so far] she is more another pawn/dupe/catspaw they can use as needed.  I think they tell her as much or as little as they need to in order to get her to act the way they want her to act.  IOW she is being manipulated by them.  But that doesnt mean she is ALWAYS  working for them, or has any idea of the big picture.  She's not in their confidence to any great extent.  And when they dont have a "job" for her, she's on her own.

I think in DB she was on her own and wanted the book for herself.  My point was if she was BC herself, she would have realized Cowl was getting the book for them and wouldnt have risked involving Dresden.

But like I said - Im not entirely sure about Mavra.  The only 2 I think are BC for sure are Cowl and Ferrofax.

ahh
For me it seems more likely  given Mavras reputation that kincaid  warning harry that Mavra was bad news was more then just a be careful time. i take this from account that kincaid himself reports to be afraid of Mavra and, that she was consisdered "very dangerous" by the white council before she was known the be wizard level and that she got away of killing a friend of ebs in the venatori these are all people and organizations who make killing monsters there bussiness and unlike Cowl whos human i get the impression that Blampires are still getting special attention as part of an ongoing genocide against their kind. Point being she must be doing something right to have earned her rep.

for Cowl, he has gotten more screen time to demonstrate his power which can definatly create an impression but unless its stated that he can do thing that mavra cant its not really proof of superior raw power or technique. keep in mind Mavras retreat was in daylight under magical lockdown as harry acknowledged in BR if Mavra herslf cought them at night she'd take them apart. Also if Mavra had just set that up so she could get Blackmail there would not have been any point in staying around. By contrast Cowl hadnt gotten what he wanted in all those times harry confronts him and hes in the way. Just saying, one thing alot of the powerful and smart seem to have incommon is that they generally dont seek a fight unless theres a reason.

While your theory on Mavras standing in the BC is as possible as any untill we get more clues I think Mavra would have had to know  who was trying to get the book and wanted all of the necromancers laid low.

Just out of curiousity what makes you suspect Ferrorvax?

[TheCuriousFan]

Im hoping we might see some more in Book 15.

Isn't that the next Denarian book?

[Starshine]

Just out of curiousity what makes you suspect Ferrorvax?

It's just a feeling I have about him.  Basically because he was at that party - which seemed to be some kind of watershed moment in BC planning [I dont think we know everything that happened in that party yet].  Also because he's a major power - certainly someone powerful enough to be considered BC material.  And because he's extremely antagonistic to humans.  Considers them something like vermin.  Keeping him from assuming his rightful place in the universe.  Whatever the ultimate goal of the BC [I think it's destroying the Gates and bringing the Outsiders back], it's not going to be beneficial for mankind.

[cass]

Isn't that the next Denarian book?

If you go by the theory that Denariians show up/play a role in every fifth book (DM was book 5, SmF was book 10), then yes.
However, if you're going by the numbers, it's the next vampire-centric book, too: GP was book 3, BR was book 6, WN was book 9, Changes was book 12, so it follows that Book 15 is as likely to be vampire centric as Denariian-centric.  Or both at once. Which is a rather unpleasant thought for Harry et al.