Author Topic: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?  (Read 20554 times)

Offline knnn

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2012, 02:03:08 PM »
I just love this theory - it explains so much.  So Knnn - take a bow!

Thank you!  {takes bow}.  I am quite proud of the this theory.  Hopefully, it will actually turn out to be correct  ;) 

If you look further down in the thread you'll find a few (minor?) weakness of the theory (e.g. the description of Harry's sensations during his "deflect fetches" spell - pointed out by Serack I believe), so there might still be room to improve on it.  Still, it's currently my favorite working hypothesis of what was really going on at the end of PG.

I should also point out that the rival theory that Serack mentions (and to be completely fair, it's one of the inspirations for this theory) belongs to Neuro (link here).  It's the one the famously caused Jim to exclaim:

Dear god.  Are you a CIA analyst or something?

...I think we all aspire to such greatness.   ;D


P.S.  Serack -- thank you for the endorsement.  With you being an acknowledged "WOJ Rockstar" yourself, any compliment you give is one I will savor.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 02:26:27 PM by knnn »
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2012, 03:42:07 PM »
I still dont get it - what bargain exactly would Mab have made? This theory all seems so nebulous compared to Knnn's which clearly spells out what was going on and why.  And it all fits.  That's why I like it.

My objection was that - given what happened to Lea - I cant see Mab making any kind of bargain with the BC.  She wouldnt trust them and she'd be in no mood to make bargains.
Trust is not necessary for a bargain with the Fae because breaking a bargain with the Fae will give them power over you. Mab could very well have hoped for the other parties betrayal.  Compare with Harrys deal with Nicodemus in small favor that counted on Nicodemus betrayal. And Fae love making bargains. If the BC had something really interesting to offer she would go for it. If it fitted into her purpose. Trying to trick her would backfire on a big scale though.

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Offline Serack

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2012, 04:06:35 PM »
Let me ask a general question about WoJ - does he never change his mind?  Writing is usually a fluid process.  You can suddenly wake up with a great idea - even if it's not the way you were originally planning to go.  Anything he said recently is probably what he intends to do [now], but older quotes might only show where his mind was tending then - 5 years ago, 7 years ago.  Im only asking.  Or is he the kind of writer who maps the whole series out beforehand and never deviates.

I really enjoy answering questions like this one. 
I started writing up a potential topic discussing this very thing, so sorry if my response to this topic is a bit long, it’s something I’ve put a lot of thought into.  This section of the WoJ compilation is my main reference for my answer to your question

Jim started the series as a class project when he was in grad school back in the Mid 90’s.  Up to that point none of his novels were worth publishing, and he had been ignoring lots of good advice from his writing teacher, and that semester he decided to do everything the way she says to prove that her techniques would suck for him.  The result was Storm Front.  As he says, "I guess I showed her."  The class was actually about how to write a successful series, and after writing the first couple chapters of Storm Front and having the prof, deem them publishable, he went home and mapped out his idea for a series of 20 books with a 3 book capstone "Big Apocalyptic Trilogy."  Apparently he still has an old notebook in his closet somewhere with the original notes from that class.

The way I understand it, that outline included approximately one sentence ideas for each of the 20 books, and (I think) a general outline of certain overarching story threads he wanted to weave into those 20 novels.  My guess is that these one sentence ideas were something along the lines of book themes with maybe some of the overarching plot points weaved in.  Stuff like, “werewolf fun, Vampire Ball/vampire war starts, Summer Court fun/Harry meets Mab & secures Winter Court support, Denarian intro, White court porno/Harry realizes he has a brother,  Movie Monsters/Harry gains an apprentice, Necromancer Fun (breaking the 5th law)/Vamp war escalates…

Notice I put “Movie Monsters” before “Necromancer fun.”  That’s because Jim originally intended them in that order, but his editor asked for something special for book seven because it was the first hard cover release, and he went with Zombie T-Rex.  Jim has also said that as he has written the series there have been a few new ideas for the books that he has come up with, and he swapped them out with ones from the original ideas.

Jim has said that there are many details that have changed or been added, but that the overarching things he wanted to accomplish in the series are still right on track.  These things are where things are with the White Council, and probably things like his relationship with Mab, what Harry knows about his family, Denarian books at numbers that are divisible by 5…

Things that Jim has said he did not originally plan are:
  • The entire Lash plot was put in on a whim when he finished Death Masks
  • Susan’s Infection, (and anything to do with Harry’s love life, he lets that come organically)
  • Maggie was conceived because Jim took on a bet that he could make a sex scene plot relevant
  • Characters that became important through the course of writing:
    • Butters
    • Freaking IVY
    • Vince Graver (Jim says he wants to use this guy more)
  • Zombie T-Rex was inspired something like 5 years before writing Dead Beat when he was watching a documentary on Sue and realized that she was in Chicago.  She wasn’t put on display until 5 years after he wrote Storm Front.
  • Switch of order between DB and PG as mentioned earlier

Between books 12 and 13 Jim had said several times that he had expected Harry to die by the midpoint of the series and that since it’s happened a little late he might end up putting out more like 22 books rather than 20, but since the release of Ghost Story, he has said that he has caught up on things and is on schedule for a 20 book series…  He has also said that traveling through time is a Law of Magic so at some point Harry is going to have to break it, implying that each law has a book associated with it like Dead Beat.  He has also said that he fully intends to do a Mirror Mirror (TTW) book, which will have a BA Marcone character.

I think that covers that question.  One more thing on Ivy, I think Small Favor is the book Jim refers to when he says he has replaced some ideas from his original notebook.

I have responses for the rest of your comments, but I’ll post this part up first, and follow up later.

Edit:  I forgot to put in the obligitory TTW (TV Tropes Warning)

ETA:  One more thing, Jim does not travel well, and his preferred medium of communication with us is text (imagine that) so sometimes questions he's asked at Q&A sessions can put him on the spot, and as such his answers might not always be quite as gosple as what is in the books.  He does have several stories/answers that he has already worked out, and which tend to get repeated multiple times.

I've been to 2 Q&A sessions with him now, and the questions I asked at the 2nd were intentionally crafted to have less deep meaning, and thus easier to answer.  At some point I wish to have a 1 on 1 Q&A session with him (something that has been looked upon favorably by both Jim and Prisc), but after all the work I put in on the compilation from it's inseption to about a month after the GS release, I ended up taking a long break from the community and I'm not as confident of my worthyness.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 09:00:37 PM by Serack »
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Offline Serack

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2012, 04:09:05 PM »
I still dont get it - what bargain exactly would Mab have made? This theory all seems so nebulous compared to Knnn's which clearly spells out what was going on and why.  And it all fits.  That's why I like it.

My objection was that - given what happened to Lea - I cant see Mab making any kind of bargain with the BC.  She wouldnt trust them and she'd be in no mood to make bargains.

Quickie response.  Although this doesn't exclude the possibility of the deal being directly with Mab, it has been pointed out that when Mab incapacitated Lea, she had to take on her bargain with Harry, and that it is possible that something similar had to be done for a deal between Lea and the Black Council.
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Offline knnn

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2012, 04:15:50 PM »
I was going to point out that Mab may have inherited Lea's bargain, but Serack beat me to it.  To make things more complicated, Cowl/Mavra (or whoever planned to infect Lea) may not have intended the Athame to get to Mab.

Serack - Another change I remember Jim mentioning is that PG was originally supposed to be before DB, but then his publisher told him the next book would be hardcover and he should do something "splashier".  ...So he used the zombie-trex idea. 

Not sure how this affects any of the theories though.
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Offline Serack

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2012, 04:26:15 PM »
Serack - Another change I remember Jim mentioning is that PG was originally supposed to be before DB, but then his publisher told him the next book would be hardcover and he should do something "splashier".  ...So he used the zombie-trex idea. 

I covered that in the part before the "list." I suppose I should add it to a bullet anyways  :P
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Offline knnn

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2012, 04:35:51 PM »
I covered that in the part before the "list." I suppose I should add it to a bullet anyways  :P

 :P

That's what I get for speed-reading your post. 
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Offline Serack

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2012, 07:08:43 PM »
I should also point out that the rival theory that Serack mentions (and to be completely fair, it's one of the inspirations for this theory) belongs to Neuro (link here).  It's the one the famously caused Jim to exclaim:

...I think we all aspire to such greatness.   ;D

Oh my, and here I thought I was being original when I wrote this.  Turns out neuro beat me to it by 2 years.  Although neuro had it tucked away as a detail in a long convoluted neurostyle theory, and I mapped out my reasoning for the theory.

Edit:  Ack, I had links saved to over 20 threads/posts that I found valuable, and my hiatus was so long that all but 5 have decayed...  Time to back up those 5 I guess...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 07:15:10 PM by Serack »
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Offline knnn

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2012, 07:29:59 PM »
Oh my, and here I thought I was being original when I wrote this

The second reason I brought up Neuro's quote is because it explores a little further how that bargain could have been used to control (or at least limit) Mab.  It's also interesting because it makes an outsider-Scarecrow connection and suggests that it was a BC member/minion rather than under the control of Mab.  The implications (e.g. reasons for killing Glau and unmolested presence in AT) are quite large.

...the first reason is of course to highlight Jim's CIA accusation, something that is so awesome, it made it into the "Dresden Files Purity Test", even though it's a feat that will probably never be duplicated.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2012, 11:43:18 PM »
Maybe knnn could work on some fine tuning of the "Time Travellin' Harry in PG" theories for me?

The Dresden Files
Episode XVI
Haunted Past
Past Tense
Half Past
Past Time
Then Again
Return to Splattercon!!!
Innocent Until

Harry is sent back in time by the Gatekeeper to find out more about the Black Council, and the mysterious events which occured in Episode VIII...

 - Why didn't PG GK say more to PG Harry?  Because Future Harry traveled back and told PG GK what to tell himself.  That's why it's really cryptic; because GK didn't know any more than Future Harry told him.
 - Who hits PG Harry in the BB with the other old beat-up car?  Future Harry.  Why?  Slow him down, delay using lil' Chicago. 
 - Why didn't Harry unplug the phone, which ended up disrupting his use of lil' Chicago?  He DID, but Future Harry snuck in and plugged it back in to a) stop him from using lil' Chicago, and b) make sure PG Harry didn't miss Molly's call.
 - Who fixed lil' Chicago?  Future Harry, who must have told Bob not to blab.
 - Who helped Mab run off the BC attackers from Arctis Tor?  Future Harry, a.k.a. Winter Knight.  Thus explaining how Mab really knew he would eventually be W.K.
 - Why did Mab wink at PG Harry as he was escaping? Because she had just winked at him moments before when he left.  Symmetry. 
 - What happened to the athame?  Future Harry took it... Back to the Future <queue theme song>.

Offline Starshine

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2012, 01:30:50 AM »
I guess everybody has their own pet theory!

For me, I tend to take the Occam's Razor approach.  I still like Knnns theory best because it fits all the facts we do know, while having the least supposing about things we dont know about.  For instance, all this speculation about a deal Lea might have made with the BC is just that.  The only deal we know she made is trading Amoracchius for the Athame.  And we all saw how that turned out.

Any deal Mab might have made with the BC is again just pure speculation.  And why she would want to make any kind of deal with the BC at that point is beyond me.  And why would that involve sending her troops to the borders of Summer?  If she was fulfilling her part of this supposed bargain, why attack Arctis Tor?  Wouldnt the attack abrogate the deal?  I mean if Harry's attack allowed Winter to move its troops, why didnt the first attack do the same thing?  There are just too many things that dont make sense to me.

Compare to Knnn's theory - which is clean and neat and doesnt need to assume facts not in evidence.  It looks at what actually happened, and then tries to discern motive.  And somewhere there is a WoJ that says something like "Who says Mab lost the battle of Arctis Tor?  Look at what happened as a result and what events got set in motion". 

Well, Molly got a reprieve from life as a warlock and became a WC apprentice.  I think this is Jim's wink to Knnn's theory.

But like I said, everyone will have their own pet theory.

Offline Starshine

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2012, 02:14:43 AM »
Maybe knnn could work on some fine tuning of the "Time Travellin' Harry in PG" theories for me?



The way you set it out, it does make sense and it could fit, but I kind of hope you're wrong  because Im not a great fan of time travel stories.  Ive never read one that I found believeable.

Even in the context of s-f, I have trouble believing the past is something you can go back into and change.  Once you allow that, there is no real present.  I mean, what would stop Cowl from going back in time and preventing the fall of the Red Court?  Or stealing the Book of Kemmler and completing the Darkhaven?  Or coming prepared to attack Gard and hold her off long enough for him to kill Harry?  Im using Cowl as an example, but Im sure he's not the only powerful entity on the BC.

I dont know - I just think once you allow the possibility of changing the past - why wouldnt everybody do it?


Offline sandman1313

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2012, 06:49:16 AM »
The way you set it out, it does make sense and it could fit, but I kind of hope you're wrong  because Im not a great fan of time travel stories.  Ive never read one that I found believeable.

Even in the context of s-f, I have trouble believing the past is something you can go back into and change.  Once you allow that, there is no real present.  I mean, what would stop Cowl from going back in time and preventing the fall of the Red Court?  Or stealing the Book of Kemmler and completing the Darkhaven?  Or coming prepared to attack Gard and hold her off long enough for him to kill Harry?  Im using Cowl as an example, but Im sure he's not the only powerful entity on the BC.

I dont know - I just think once you allow the possibility of changing the past - why wouldnt everybody do it?




but that is the elegance of harry time traveling in that theory he doesn't change any thing just enact the parts that allowed him to do what he did the first time and that would be a somewhat acceptable breaking of the law cause he all ready did it so for him not to would cause a paradox just my opinion

Now if mab had any deal with the black circle i would guess that it would be to negate the influence of the knife (i am dyslexic and cant spell the "a" word)in exchange for her keeping pressure on the summer court  but i doubt she did she is to smart for that
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 07:03:03 AM by sandman1313 »

Offline Starshine

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2012, 07:23:23 AM »



but that is the elegance of harry time traveling in that theory he doesn't change any thing just enact the parts that allowed him to do what he did the first time and that would be a somewhat acceptable breaking of the law cause he all ready did it so for him not to would cause a paradox just my opinion



I dont understand what you're trying to say here.  If he changed nothing why did he go back in time in the first place?

I thought the point of the OP was that Harry was severely wounded in the Little Chicago explosion the first time around, which took him out of the game.  Future Harry went back to correct this by ensuring LC never exploded.  How is that not changing anything?  The change is huge and impacts everyone.

So why wouldnt some Black Hat try doing the same thing?

Offline sandman1313

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Re: Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2012, 07:49:10 AM »
ok my bad i have not read the original post but but my point is that harry went back in time because he had to not to prevent an explosion in LC although that is a good thing. but if u need a reason for harry to travel back in time say mab needs the knife but knows she cant hold it for long with out going mad so she has harry ,still her knight and therefore not as strictly bound by the laws, travel back in time where harry informs her of the events that r about to happen she then informs the gatekeeper who tells harry about the black magick happening and sets the whole thing off.  this explains y mab took molly as well but the main reason for it is that harry already did it and that removes your trouble with time travel the reason cowl doesn't do any of those things is he didn't therefor for him to do so would create a rather large paradox