Magic and Technology

[johntfs]

Would it be possible in the game to "harden" electrical devices against mystical attack?  I'm specifically thinking of military electronics that have been hardened against power electromagnetic pulses or solar flares.

[finarvyn]

An interesting question, and one that I have wondered about. In electrodynamics there is the idea of a "Faraday Cage", which is a screen enclosure which can shut out electromagnetic waves like radio. (Okay, so I teach Physics.)

Perhaps if magic is somehow electromagnetic (after all it does affect electronics) then a similar thing could be constructed to screen out magic, or to keep a wizard from affecting an electronic gizmo....

[rdonoghue]

Well, the rub of that is that magic also effects mechanical things at times too.  Ultimately, the logic of how magic impacts technology is, well, magical. 

I'm not meaning that to be handwavey - rather I mean that the logic is something very different from the norm, and as such, things that might seem to make perfect sense may not be applicable at all.  That said,  if you're just a guy who's knowledgeable about magic and want your machine to not get fried maybe you put it in a circle, or behind a strong threshold, or over running water.  Buy into the logic of magic, and things open up.

Setting that aside, I don't see such a thing making it into the book, but at the same time, it's something that could make for a really awesome game element.  The specifics of the device (and the first one will be a gun:  the first one is *always* a gun) don't interest me as much as what its existence _implies_.  It suggests that people with the *means* and the *understanding* necessary have made this happen, and once that's been done, what else might they do?  Whant mage-killing bombs?  Set up a stack of TNT with a sophisticated electronic device that's keeping it from exploding.  Merry Christmas.  A little tweaking of the setting and you could have a great technology vs. magic game.  It wouldn't be Dresden, but it would probably be cool.

See, on the surface, it seems like things are tilted strongly in favor of magic over technology.  Magic can do things like generate shields, kill remotely and most of all, it's directly disruptive to technology.  But that's only half the story.  Setting aside the numerous advantages in technology, like unskilled use, ubiquity and sheer variety of application, one key fact remains - the greatest advantage of magic is the ignorance of the populace as a whole.  If people understood some basic principles, like cirlces, thresholds, water, the importance of props and so on, the conflict would grow quickly lopsided.  In setting, the best illustration of this is the impact of Bram Stoker's writings on the health of the Black Court.  Just imagine if Mr. Butcher was a guy with a bone to pick with the Wizards of the world - think of how good a how-to manual the Dresden files would be.

(As an example, one of Harry's greatest strokes of luck is that he has yet to face an opponent who, upon capturing him, has not stripped him naked and thrown his every posession into the nearest blast furnace, and tucked away a few hair trimmings for good measure).

Anyway, this is a long way of saying that, no, you probably can't harden a device agaisnt magic the same way you can against EM, but at the same time, if you're willing to think a little crazy, you can make the rules of magic work for you.

-Rob D.

[Belmonte]

I'd disagree.  Butters has, in Dead Beat, given some thought to comparing magic to science, and created psuedo-theory about it.  Whether or not a Faraday Cage works is up to you, but I think it's an interesting idea, and Jim has certainly opened the door with Butters 'electro-magnetic-like field' thing to the fact that magic is in some way scientifically quantifiable.

[Kalium]

I'd disagree.  Butters has, in Dead Beat, given some thought to comparing magic to science, and created psuedo-theory about it.  Whether or not a Faraday Cage works is up to you, but I think it's an interesting idea, and Jim has certainly opened the door with Butters 'electro-magnetic-like field' thing to the fact that magic is in some way scientifically quantifiable.

The crack about a "Murphyonic field" struck me as more a Star Trek-ish joke than anything.

[rdonoghue]

The rub is "like".

Yes, absolutely there is some similarity, but this is an area that it's very, very hard to get hard and fast with.  Butters has some excellent theories, but they also don't account for why Harry is more likely to jam an automatic than a revolver, despite the fact that the automatic may be a simpler machine.  Go figure.

Now, that said, Butters is definitely on track of some interesting stuff, and there's a lot that can be done with it, but it is, at best, pseudo-science.  Even if Butters were the most brilliant researcher on the planet, his sample pool is remarkably small and his control group nonexistent.  Were one a cynic, one might point out that Butter's conclusions are remarkably similar to a lot of superstition (i see something, I explain it in the terms I know and understand!).

Given all that, the real answer is that the interaction of magic and technology works exactly the way Jim needs it to at any given moment, and when it is inconvenient or problematic, it's magic.  All author's cheat,  like this, Jim just has a better excuse.

So, this becomes an area where we need to separate the needs of a game from those of, say, an official fan guide.  If we provide an answer to this which is concrete (such as yes, it's a lot like EM, and can be dealt with) we have just cascaded headfirst away from the world of the books because as soon as that door is opened, a whole lot of mess comes through.

As such, in terms of the game, the explanation will err on the conservative side. 

In terms of private theories of explanation on the books, I've got little to say - the range of possibilities is far wider than mere EM and far more interesting, and I encourage people to run with it as far as they can.   That is, however, a different set of needs.

-Rob D.

[M T Fierce, h.d.]

they also don't account for why Harry is more likely to jam an automatic than a revolver, despite the fact that the automatic may be a simpler machine.  Go figure.

One of the unusual things Harry said regarding technology and magic was its timeline; wasn't it things built after World War II (the event of which there's been some mentions here and there of having a significant magical component) that had a problem?  That suggests something there in that event, or a magical "lag" before catching up to the delicacy of technology, or even opening up a whole new type of magic that wizards can't tap into (technoshamanism, anyone?)

[finarvyn]

I think that it may come down to the type of technology, not just technology itself. Think about what was developed right around WWII: the computer.

Computers (and similar technology) tend to be pretty fragile. For example, if you take a computer disk (or 8-track tape or cassette tape) and put it on your stereo speaker it will lose quality. Why? Because the information is stored magnetically and stereo speakers contain electromagnets. (DVDs shouldn't have this problem because they are laser/optical in nature rather than magnetic.)

If magic is somewhat electromagnetic, then any technology based on this could have problems. If you read about thermonuclear devices, you may have heard about the EMP that could destroy most of our technology if a nuke goes off nearby. An "EMP" is an "electromagnetic pulse" and it could crash computers, make cars not start, kill most phone systems, and other similar effects. The reason is that the EMP would be a huge surge of electromagnetism that would short out electric computer chips and the like. Older cars (such as the blue beetle) wouldn't have so much of this type of technology and therefore might be safe.

Magic could be like this, only on a smaller scale.

(Usually I charge for physics tutoring, but today is freebie day. 

[johntfs]

Maybe the reason that more modern appliances tend to malfunction around magic that their magic is more sensitive.

Quantum theory's initial concept was that conscious observation impacts the physical world on at least the quantum level.  Almost anything to do with electronics especially requires quantum physics to function. 

If Clarke's maxim is "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Then Dresden's maxim might well be "Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology."

Maybe the main reason our technology works is that  we as conscious, sentient people believe that it will.  Whenever locally stronger magic is present, it tends to "jam" that magical signal on which our technology depends.  Thus, computers, electronics, even relatively complicated mechanical devices like guns malfunction around strong enough magic.

[iago]

Well, here's a tidbit that came up as we were researching the RPG (by which I mean, coming up with tough questions and asking Jim about them) -- the cutoff for what technology functions reliably around a wizard is different from wizard to wizard.  Harry's cutoff is around about World War II, for example, but Ebenezar's is even older than that.  That truck Old Eb drives around is really, *really* old -- vintage, one might even say.

This suggests that, what we're missing in the discussion here is the idea that -- at least to some extent -- the wizard's own conception of technology, perhaps at a subconscious level, plays into what gets accidentally hexed around him.  Or -- given that Ebenezar's very likely quite more powerful than Harry -- that it's power level that reaches further back along the technological advancement track.

Regardless, what it does say fairly clearly to us is that the hexing of technological devices is clearly, irrefutably not *exclusively* one of electromagnetism. 

Calling it an EMP is, I think, putting the cart before the horse.  Seeing a correlation between electronics getting shorted out and magic being used, and saying, well, EMP shorts out electronics -- that's not quite right. 

Instead, it's more that electronics are 1) Newer, and 2) More complex than non-electronic devices, so they're more vulnerable.  That just means that they're what gets hexed with a higher frequency -- but that's not the full data set, and the EMP theory misses a significant portion of the cases not covered. 

The breakdown of complex *mechanical* functions is where it becomes something more like "the ghost of the wizard's subconscious wreaking psychokinetic havoc" or some other mumbo-jumbo-like phrasing.

What's an unanswered question -- and one I am not yet strongly motivated to "research" -- is whether or not this is a sort of sliding scale based on what the current idea of "modern" is.  Wizards have been around a lot longer than technology, and certain technologies were new at one point or another.  When complex, gear-and-spring-driven watchwork was first invented, was that vulnerable to hexing so long as it was considered to be a "modern" innovation?  That's the sort of question someone might need to invent their own answer for if they were doing a Dark Ages take on the Dresden Files.

[johntfs]

Wizards have been around a lot longer than technology, and certain technologies were new at one point or another.

I'd take a certain amount of issue with that statement.  Ultimately technology is simply the controlled application of the observed nature of the universe.  At some point.  The wheel is technology.  Rubbing two sticks together to produce fire is technology.  The construction of shelters is technology.

At its most basic level, wizardry seems to be the application of quantum probability wave collapse brought to the conscious, classical level.  For example, it's extremely unlikely that the air in front of a person would suddenly form into a hard shield against bullets.  However, it's not impossible, just very, very improbable.

Wizardry seems to be the process of imagining a result, however improbable that result would naturally be and then using one's will to "adjust" factors to cause that result to occur.  Rings, gestures, even words are not necessary to do this.  All that's ultimately needed by the wizard is his imagination and will.

So, its very probable that wizardry and technology have been around for the same length of time.  Advances in technology, science and the process of thinking have informed wizardry as time has passed.  Quite possibly the reverse has also been true.  A wizard who causes something to be accomplished by his imagination and will might well have induced an ancient scientist to pursue that result in the natural world.

Indeed, in some ancient cultures, notably Egypt, magic and science were considered to be of a piece and reserved for the priesthood.

[GraevD]

To throw out a bit of my Theory of Magic here -

Science is the objective study of the forces around us.  Magic is the subjective manipulation of the forces around us.

Science is our attempt to describe, quantify, and catalog the forces acting around us.  Its completely objective, as the root of science is the repeatable experiment.

Magic is an individual's way of interacting with and altering the forces around him/her.  Its completely subjective, as each individual is unique.

Since electromagnetic theory and tech seems to dominate current theory, let me use electricity as a base example.

Electricity is charged particles in motion.  Science as studied the generation of these particles and how they move, and we build items based on these observations.  Magic, however, doesn't concern itself with the conductivity of various metals, or what materials make the best insulators.  The magic user doesn't concern himself/herself with "how" a cloud forms a lightning bolt.  The magic user *is* the cloud per se, and produces the charge without needing to understand the process.

My idea on older technology is The Law of Magical Inertia which states the amount of magical force an object can withstand without being altered is directly proportional to the amount of time an object has been exposed to magical forces and remained unchanged.  This theory assumes magical energy exists constantly and consistantly at a low low level at all times around us.  Its low enough to not affect the natural laws of science as they are. (after all, if the background magic changed natual law, then they'd be different than they are)  The longer an object exists inside that background magic, the more of a resistance to magical energy it builds up.  The effect magic has is to alter the inherent natural working of an object, and the long that item/object has worked that way, the more magic is needed to make that alteration.  Also, an interesting side note to this in terms of tech is the alteration itself.  Objects which are more basic tend to be able to withstand alteration and still function within reasonably normal parameters.

[Kalium]

What I see is that it seems to be based on how the wizard regards technology. I suspect that if a wizard was your typical computer geek, then we'd see them having trouble with basically no electronics.

[TMW]

I can just imagine, at some siege in the 14th century, where a wizard is standing next to a trebuchet and he mucks it up cause his personal concept of whats "new" doesn't include it.

But he's just fine with the older, more reliable catapult.

What I see is that it seems to be based on how the wizard regards technology. I suspect that if a wizard was your typical computer geek, then we'd see them having trouble with basically no electronics.

This brings up an interesting question...what about the concept of "technomages", or wizards whose main medium is technology...or, more specifically, the mass movement of electrons within a electronic device.

Would there be rules for that sort of thing?

[Kalium]

That makes me think of the old World of Darkness and the Sons of Ether/Virtual Adepts.