Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?

[UmbraLux]

If it doesn't, then where is the power coming from? I agree, paying Mental Stress for Thaumaturgy is pretty dire, but I have been figuring the advantage is in scope of effect, and possibly duration. I'm open to having my mind changed.

It's still thaumaturgy, power sources are the same (Lore + aspects).  The differences are

• Line of sight only (as evocation)
• It's cast in one exchange with spell power declared first and then a control roll (as evocation)

I'm not seeing any other changes to thaumaturgy...everything else defaults back to thaumaturgy.

Uh, the cost is part of the methods?  And it's different from your proposed stunt in two ways: evothaum still bases its power off conviction, and evothaum can do things that evocation simply can't - like healing someone, or establishing a ward that lasts for a day, or other complex or long-lasting effects.

So, in your interpretation, the only differences between "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" and evocation are duration and some minor scope changes? 

You have to add a lot of changes to the text to get there.  The only changes to thaumaturgy listed are LoS and "power first, control second, in one exchange". 

I certainly haven't been able to find any mention of taking stress to cast a thaumaturgy spell at speed or switching out Lore for Conviction.  The first I could see adding as a balance issue.  I'm not sure why you'd want the second...it no longer seems like thaumaturgy to me. 

[devonapple]

A lot of what Sponsored Magic is supposed to reflect, in my view, is to model how certain folks in the setting (notably, powerful Sidhe, Kemmlerites, and users of Hellfire or Soulfire) can cast powerful magic with the greatest of ease, and EvoThaum is a key element of how that is modeled in the Dresden magical system. I'm inclined to vote against charging Mental stress for the ability, but only by a narrow margin. If EvoThaum gets the advantage of Thaumaturgical duration, the impact of charging Mental stress could be negligible in all but the most embroiled magical conflicts.

Do we have any "Actual Play" (official or semi-official) references featuring EvoThaum in action?

[wyvern]

So, in your interpretation, the only differences between "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" and evocation are duration and some minor scope changes? 

I wouldn't call that a "minor" scope change.  The difference in what evocation can do (direct brute-force stuff only), vs what thaumaturgy can do, is huge.  It's like saying that it's just a minor scope change to replace a flashlight with a laptop computer.

And the only changes for evothaum are "with evocation's methods and speed" i.e. you use it just like you would evocation - set a power, call up shifts based on conviction, etc.  I really don't understand how you can interpret it as being just "thaumaturgy with no prep"; in my opinion, the text doesn't support that at all.

As for higher end entities being able to use powerful magic with ease: you may note that, for an example, anything at the Lady+ level is, in the books, simply not statted.  For others, keep in mind the benefits of sponsor debt.  Out of mental stress boxes?  No problem; casting something at Conviction+1 would normally cost 2 stress, which you can soak with a point of sponsor debt.  If you're totally beholden to your sponsor anyway - i.e. Sidhe, or just that bonkers for kemmlerites / hellfire - why not?
And for making that "powerful magic with ease", well, that's just a case of those NPCs having -10 worth of refinement, or conviction / discipline at +8, or the like.

[devonapple]

Side Question: If I have a powerful Sidhe NPC, should I perhaps be giving them full Evocation and Thaumaturgy, in addition to Sponsored Magic, so that they can easily justify the use of Refinements?

[UmbraLux]

I wouldn't call that a "minor" scope change.  The difference in what evocation can do (direct brute-force stuff only), vs what thaumaturgy can do, is huge.  It's like saying that it's just a minor scope change to replace a flashlight with a laptop computer.

In the context of the number of shifts of power you can control, it's not all that much.  You're probably not going to make any permanent changes with fast thaumaturgy.  It take 12 shifts just to make something last a mortal lifetime.  That alone is pushing the limits of optimization.  Particularly since your Discipline roll has to match the number of shifts, unlike evocation thaumaturgy does not add the roll to the power.

And the only changes for evothaum are "with evocation's methods and speed" i.e. you use it just like you would evocation - set a power, call up shifts based on conviction, etc.  I really don't understand how you can interpret it as being just "thaumaturgy with no prep"; in my opinion, the text doesn't support that at all.

I don't read any extra into the text.  It states "Line of Sight" and "power/control/one exchange" - it doesn't say it 'becomes evocation in every way except scope and duration'.

As for higher end entities being able to use powerful magic with ease: you may note that, for an example, anything at the Lady+ level is, in the books, simply not statted.  For others, keep in mind the benefits of sponsor debt.  Out of mental stress boxes?  No problem; casting something at Conviction+1 would normally cost 2 stress, which you can soak with a point of sponsor debt.  If you're totally beholden to your sponsor anyway - i.e. Sidhe, or just that bonkers for kemmlerites / hellfire - why not?
And for making that "powerful magic with ease", well, that's just a case of those NPCs having -10 worth of refinement, or conviction / discipline at +8, or the like.

It seems to me you're making another change (use sponsor debt in place of stress) to make up for your previous change.  Why not just read it strictly to start with?

[UmbraLux]

Side Question: If I have a powerful Sidhe NPC, should I perhaps be giving them full Evocation and Thaumaturgy, in addition to Sponsored Magic, so that they can easily justify the use of Refinements?

I tend to treat sponsored magic as one theme / element.  So they'll want other themes / elements for any refinements needing to follow a pyramid scheme.  This is my treatment of it though - I don't think it's mentioned in the text.

[Vargo Teras]

Side Question: If I have a powerful Sidhe NPC, should I perhaps be giving them full Evocation and Thaumaturgy, in addition to Sponsored Magic, so that they can easily justify the use of Refinements?

I'd actually expect most Sidhe to carry around clear and visible trappings of magic; iconic objects are a significant part of such legends.  As such, you shouldn't really need to give them Evocation or Thaumaturgy just for Refinements, instead purchasing higher-powered Focus items.  For those who have the appropriate scope, and not just power, to justify reaching beyond the aegis of the Sponsored Magic to full-on Evocation or Thaumaturgy, then it's certainly a possibility. Seelie and Unseelie magic treat Summer and Winter as a single evocation element, according to the text, so that's how I'd expect them to be treated for Refinements; for thaumaturgical specialties, each has more than one area of focus.

[Becq]

I agree with devonapple's opinion that Thaum-as-Evo costs mental strain.  My reasoning is based largely on the following:

Thaumaturgy’s set of effects are broader-reaching, not constricted by the straight-line force principles of evocation. With the power source, you get access to the listed set of thaumaturgic effects (often a thematic grouping of some sort) as a viable effect of an evocation spell. So you might be able to throw together a small ward quickly, summon a minor creature extra-quick, or cast a curse of decay with the flick of a wrist. In these cases, use what would have been the complexity of the thaumaturgic effect as a guideline for the power of the evocation.

To me, this clarifies that what they intended was that Sponsored Magic was intended to be treated as a 'normal' Evocation spell, but with a wider set of effects.  That is, that within the contect of the sponsored magic 'element', you are no longer limited to attack, block, maneuver, and counterspell, but can additionally do things that normally would require Thaumaturgy (eg, tracking spells, summoning, wards, etc) as though those options were cut-and-pasted into the Evocation rules, but replacing complexity with 'shifts of power'.

Note that this does put some practical limits on the sorts of Thaumaturgy that a given spellcaster is capable of casting at evocation speed.  A complexity 26 Entropy Curse (Weapons Grade) (see YS296) is just a matter of time and preparation; assuming the caster has a control of 5, it is guaranteed to succeed in 26 control rolls.  Summoning 26 shifts worth of power for an Evocation version of this is much more challenging (even at conviction 5 and a couple of power specializations, that's 20 mental stress -- and that's before managing to control the spell in a single roll!)  On the other hand, casting a quick tracking spell would be fairly easy.  (Note that both examples assume that the spells fit into the Sponsored Magic theme to begin with.)

[UmbraLux]

I agree with devonapple's opinion that Thaum-as-Evo costs mental strain.  My reasoning is based largely on the following:

Thaumaturgy’s set of effects are broader-reaching, not constricted by the straight-line force principles of evocation. With the power source, you get access to the listed set of thaumaturgic effects (often a thematic grouping of some sort) as a viable effect of an evocation spell. So you might be able to throw together a small ward quickly, summon a minor creature extra-quick, or cast a curse of decay with the flick of a wrist. In these cases, use what would have been the complexity of the thaumaturgic effect as a guideline for the power of the evocation.

To me, this clarifies that what they intended was that Sponsored Magic was intended to be treated as a 'normal' Evocation spell, but with a wider set of effects.  That is, that within the contect of the sponsored magic 'element', you are no longer limited to attack, block, maneuver, and counterspell, but can additionally do things that normally would require Thaumaturgy (eg, tracking spells, summoning, wards, etc) as though those options were cut-and-pasted into the Evocation rules, but replacing complexity with 'shifts of power'.

Note that this does put some practical limits on the sorts of Thaumaturgy that a given spellcaster is capable of casting at evocation speed.  A complexity 26 Entropy Curse (Weapons Grade) (see YS296) is just a matter of time and preparation; assuming the caster has a control of 5, it is guaranteed to succeed in 26 control rolls.  Summoning 26 shifts worth of power for an Evocation version of this is much more challenging (even at conviction 5 and a couple of power specializations, that's 20 mental stress -- and that's before managing to control the spell in a single roll!)  On the other hand, casting a quick tracking spell would be fairly easy.  (Note that both examples assume that the spells fit into the Sponsored Magic theme to begin with.)

Thanks, I understand where your interpretation stems from now.  Are you adding control roll to power for the effective number of shifts?  If not, it seems too weak to be useful.  If you are, I'd call it "evocation with the duration and scope of thaumaturgy" instead of a modified form of thaumaturgy.   

[Becq]

Thanks, I understand where your interpretation stems from now.  Are you adding control roll to power for the effective number of shifts?  If not, it seems too weak to be useful.  If you are, I'd call it "evocation with the duration and scope of thaumaturgy" instead of a modified form of thaumaturgy.   

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  My take is that you do it exactly as you would a normal evocation.  First you gather power -- figure out complexity, rename that number "shifts of power", then compare it to your conviction (plus any applicable power specializations).  Pay the required mental stress.  Then make a Discipline roll to control those shifts (adding in any applicable control specializations).  Note that since the Sponsored Magic is considered an additional element, I assume that you can buy specializations for that element, assuming your template allowed for specializations.  Note also that just because you have the option of fast-casting spells that would normally require Thaumaturgy, this doesn't mean that you have to.  Sponsored Magic is channeling+ritual+extra benefits, so you can always fall back on casting the spell as a plain old ritual.  But while Dresden would have to brew up a potion give someone faster running speed, a Summer caster could simply breath speed into them (Biomancy cast as Evocation).

And by the way, I'm not trying to say that there's any hard limit to how powerful a spell you can cast, just that a complexity 26 thaum-as-evo spell would be just as difficult as a 26-shift attack evocation would be -- and probably not an option for most spellcasters.

[UmbraLux]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  My take is that you do it exactly as you would a normal evocation. 

With evocation the resulting effect is decided by power plus control.  With thaumaturgy the resulting effect is power.  It sounds like you're going with the evocation model (which is what I was asking).

And by the way, I'm not trying to say that there's any hard limit to how powerful a spell you can cast, just that a complexity 26 thaum-as-evo spell would be just as difficult as a 26-shift attack evocation would be -- and probably not an option for most spellcasters.

I agree, there's no real hard limit but there is a functional limit to what you can do in one exchange.  That's true whether it's evocation, thaumaturgy at evocation speeds, or evocation with thaumaturgy's scope.   

[sinker]

Additionally UmbraLux if one reads further into the sidebar on YS288 they go on to discuss why one would want this since mechanically evocation and thaumaturgy are capable of similar things. If mental stress was a difference I would expect them to state that as one of the advantages. Instead they simply state that thaumaturgy requires less rationalization to do many of the things that are difficult to simply throw around as evocation effects.

I don't know if the point is necessary but I figured I'd make it anyway.

[devonapple]

The thing baking my noodle is: can you use EvoThaum to automatically hit someone for whom you have taken a sympathetic link (via a Maneuver)?

[wyvern]

With evocation the resulting effect is decided by power plus control.  With thaumaturgy the resulting effect is power.  It sounds like you're going with the evocation model (which is what I was asking).

Well, it's power plus control for attacks.  Other things go off of just power, with the control roll being mostly irrelevant.

The thing baking my noodle is: can you use EvoThaum to automatically hit someone for whom you have taken a sympathetic link (via a Maneuver)?

Hit?  No.  Attack, yes, but they'd still get to defend with *something*.  Perhaps endurance.
Edit: Rules Fail - evothaum is limited to line of sight, see YS288.

[UmbraLux]

Additionally UmbraLux if one reads further into the sidebar on YS288 they go on to discuss why one would want this since mechanically evocation and thaumaturgy are capable of similar things. If mental stress was a difference I would expect them to state that as one of the advantages. Instead they simply state that thaumaturgy requires less rationalization to do many of the things that are difficult to simply throw around as evocation effects.

Conversely, I expect them to default to what they're calling it unless specified otherwise.   

The thing baking my noodle is: can you use EvoThaum to automatically hit someone for whom you have taken a sympathetic link (via a Maneuver)?

Thaumaturgy does have to account for defenses and rolls - read the section on take outs via thaumaturgy.  So they would get a defense of some sort.