Author Topic: Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?  (Read 2508 times)

Offline darkfire14

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Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?
« on: December 30, 2011, 12:26:13 AM »
Now if a spellcaster is a Cyclomancer (Mind Mage), could they technically do anything that a Mage from the World of Darkness do with such magic. Perhaps you can elaborate if it would require Channeling or Ritual to actually perform the effects. Of course applications might be considered as breaking the laws of magic so indicate which ones would be clear violations.

1. Create an effect that makes people ignore you as you walk by them  (Aka, incognito Rote). Would this be considered a Mind Based Veil of some kind?

2. Messing with someone's mind so that your actual position is perceived as somewhere else. (Aka, Misconception Rote). Would this also be a Veil of some kind?

3. Allow yourself to "Overclock" your own mind allowing you to process information more quickly and enhance your intelligence (Aka Augment Mind Rote)

4. Create a Mental Block that defends your mind against mental stress and attacks (Aka Mental Wall Rote)

5. Allowing your mind to Multi-Task and process numerous thought processes at once (Aka Multi-Tasking Rote)

6. Cause a target become groggy or fall asleep (Aka Sleep of the Just Mind Rote)

7. Remove mental stress or heal mental consequences (I think there was a rote that could suppress or remove derangements)

8. Creating illusions by affecting a target's senses (Aka Hallucination Rote)

9. Causing Physical Stress by causing someone's brain misfire and overload (Aka  Psychic Assult/Psychic Sword Rotes) [This might do mental stress instead]

10. Creating an independent intelligence based on your own mind (Aka Psychic Genesis Rote)
 
11. Speak into the mind of a target or send a mental message (AKA Telepathy Rote)

12. Understand and translate any language (Aka Universal Language Rote)




Offline EdgeOfDreams

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Re: Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2011, 12:45:16 AM »
I would allow a character with both Channeling and Ritual (Mind Magic) to do any and all of those.  However, the complexity and difficulty would vary wildly.  For example, your #1, a mental veil, would probably be handled the same way a Channeling (Spirit) veil is, though I might allow the target to defend with Discipline OR Alertness, whichever is higher for them.  On the other hand, #10, creating an independent intelligence, would probably be a thaumaturgic ritual on the scale of 20 or 30 shifts, BARE MINIMUM.

Offline benign

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Re: Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2011, 12:52:42 AM »
I know nothing about WoD, so I'll reply to your questions in terms of how I'd get it done just with DF rules, keeping in mind the laws of magic.

1. Definitely a veil. You can flavor it as a mental block against perception, kind of like Harry used in the second book, if you so wish.

2. You could do this with another block, with an added maneuver to throw a Mirror Image aspect up. They could pierce the block with attack skills, which would let them know that the double is illusory, but not necessarily where you are.

3. Depends on what you want to use your overclocked mind for, but probably a navel-gazing maneuver that you could tag for lore, perception, or scholarship rolls.

4. You basically described a run-of-the-mill block that applies against mental attacks. It's all right there in the evocation section.

5. Like 3, an aspect you throw down on yourself which you can tag for certain mental rolls or use as the justification for a declaration.

6. There is some . . . disagreement over whether sleep spells require mental stress attacks, and how that plays in to the laws of magic. Canonically we have at least 2 instances of Harry putting someone to sleep, so most tables will probably allow it, with the caveat that no consequences greater than minor ones can be inflicted before it starts breaking the laws of magic. You could also skirt the mind-magic issue and have your spell administer good old fashioned physical sleep (simulating knock-out gas and other chemical sleep inducers), though it sounds like you want mind magic here.

7. There are examples given for biomancy in the book that you could just as easily apply to psychomantic healing (removing mental stress). Keep in mind that all such spells will be thaumaturgy, not evocation, though some potions and the like may be useful for suppressing mental consequences (again, look at the examples).

8. Illusions are easily done with maneuvers and blocks, and most mind magic that does not inflict stress is ok (as I interpret the laws of magic, though this is not a universal consensus).

9. If it causes physical stress, then it doesn't matter how you flavor it. You could say that it summons a horde of fiery swords that descend on the enemy, you could say it taps directly into their nervous system and fries their synapses, but mechanically speaking both of those are straightforward evocation attacks that are defended against by athletics (or plausibly endurance).

10. This might be doable with thaumaturgy, but it would be very complex and I don't really feel like getting into it right now. Other people in these forums have more of a gift and more patience, and will help you out better. Regardless of my own unhelpfulness though, creating a temporary magical AI based on your own may not violate any of the laws of magic because you don't need to affect or violate anyone else's psyche to do it.

11. Telepathy happens in one of the books. Again it doesn't cause stress, so it is plausibly not a violation of any law of magic as long as you don't get any extra insight into their character or mind-reading out of it. Also going to be thaumaturgy, though I suppose you might be able to justify evocation if you really want to.

12. Understanding languages is another tough one, again probably thaumaturgy and again not breaking the laws as long as you only use it on yourself. I could also see this as being a good use for a potion or usable magical item, perhaps requiring 5 or so shifts of power to apply for an entire scene. But again, someone else will likely come up with a better answer.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 12:56:58 AM by benign »

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2011, 01:22:00 AM »
Ignoring any Law issues, here is what I'd suggest:
  • 1 - A veil, either evocation or thaumaturgy.
  • 2 - Either veil or maneuver depending on specific effects desired, evocation.
  • 3 - Most likely one or more maneuvers, either evocation or thaumaturgy.
  • 4 - Block, armor, or a maneuver, either evocation or thaumaturgy.
  • 5 - Probably one or more maneuvers unless you're looking for multiple actions, either evocation or thaumaturgy.
  • 6 - Either a maneuver or a conflict culminating in takeout, either evocation or thaumaturgy.
  • 7 - Healing isn't all that "magical" in DFRPG.  Typically you can speed healing but not simply erase consequences.  Thaumaturgy.
  • 8 - Maneuver, veil, or conflict culminating in takeout, either evocation or thaumaturgy.
  • 9 - An attack, either evocation or thaumaturgy.
  • 10 - Extensive thaumaturgy or part of character creation.  Might want to look at the threads on summoning, golem creation, and pets / companions for inspiration.
  • 11 - Either a maneuver (evocation) or a skill replacement thaumaturgy ritual.  Depends on exact benefits you want.
  • 12 - This would be a skill replacement thaumaturgy ritual.  Probably a separate ritual for each language - creating one to give you all languages would require a large number of shifts.
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Offline Ricky

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Re: Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2011, 11:02:53 AM »
#10-The wardhounds are a type of golem with a primitive AI based off Anchient Mai's brain so that is possible. 

A lot of your other examples are violations of the laws so you would get the death sentence if you did them. But overclocking your brain and making mental walls would both be possible as psychomantic manuevers.

Offline SunlessNick

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Re: Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2011, 02:36:43 PM »
Regarding the Laws, the relevant ones are the third and the fourth, which are respectively "Never invade the thoughts of another" and "Never enthrall another" - preventing mind-reading and mind-control.  Note that the Laws are both metaphysical (that's what gives you the Lawbreaker stunt when you break them) and legislative (that's what makes Wardens chop your head off).  I would interpret the effects you describe as:

1.  Fourth Law violation in both senses.

2.  Fourth Law violation in both senses.

3.  Fine.  Anything you do to yourself is fine.

4.  As with 3, that's fine.  It's not something White Coucil wizards tend to be good at, because they're prohibited from doing any of the magics that would test the effectiveness of defensive spells, but an exception could easily exist due to talent, diligent theory, or the cooperation of a friendly supernatural with mind powers.

5.  Fine.

6.  I'll get back to this.

7.  Grey area.  It would count as a Fourth Law violation if you used it to compel changes in a subject's thinking or behaviour.  It may count as a Third Law violation if you scan a subject's mind in ways that might be used to enhance mundane psychotherapy - I say "may" because the Third Law uses the word "invade," which implies nonconsent on the part of the subject, as opposed to the other Laws which are worded in ways that refer to actions regardless of motive - you might then argue that permission means it's not a crine, though it's not clear whether it does.  However, it's one of the few areas where the Wardens might be more forgiving than the metaphysical consequences.

8.  Fourth Law violation in both senses.  Veils normally affect light or sound directly, and you could avoid the Lawbreak by affecting the sensory nerves on a physical level.  It would almost impossible to prove you didn't do one of those things rather than affecting the mind - Warden's do not get a license to break the Laws themselves, so they couldn't use mind magic to get the truth out of you.

9.  I'll get back to this.

10.  Fine.  However, doing it with someone else's mind would be a Third Law violation, with the same caveats as 7 about consent.

11.  Fine.  A message doesn't compel them to obey, and doesn't allow you to read their minds.  However, they would have to perform a similar spell themselves in order to reply; reading a reply in their minds pushes the Third Law.

6 and 9.  Under the same argument as 11, throwing mental crap at someone doesn't control or read them, so I don't think it would count as a Lawbreaking in the metaphysical sense - however, the Wardens might well decide it counts under the legislative sense - you won't get the Lawbreak stunt for it, but you might get a sword to the neck.

12.  I think it would be Third Law violation if you were reading the meaning out of someone's mind, though consent comes up again.  If you were sending the meaning of your own speech, so that everyone understands you, I think that would be fine.  And if you used mind magic to make yourself a polyglot, that would be fine.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2011, 09:41:17 PM »
the caveat that no consequences greater than minor ones can be inflicted before it starts breaking the laws of magic.

A restriction wholly inconsistent with the canonical examples cited immediately prior.
I really do NOT understand this philosophy of pushing for all mental stress to be considered Lawbreaking.  It's not supported by canon.  It's not supported by RAW.  It's not even supported, from what I've seen, by the Word of [X] Q&A sessions that have been posted on these forums.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2011, 10:05:52 PM »
My theory is that people are looking for a convenient excuse to ban Evocation mental attacks for balance reasons.

Personally, I think that people should just ban Evocation mental attacks for balance reasons. Or choose to read the rules in a way that makes them impossible. Like you say, the Lawbreaking argument is not a terribly good one. And it doesn't really solve anything.

Offline benign

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Re: Doing WOD Mind Magic in Dresdenverse?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2011, 10:10:05 PM »
My theory is that people are looking for a convenient excuse to ban Evocation mental attacks for balance reasons.

Or I was just mistaken :P.