Need some help reworking social conflicts.

[Aminar]

This topic was inspired by an un-named RPG based on a book series by one of my favorite authors.  In it social conflicts are handled in a way I find much more comfortable than the ones in the DFRPG.  My party has never had a social conflict in DFRPG because it feels better to just roleplay them out(as the DM), skipping the whole damage bit.  In this other RPG social conflicts are used differently, they aren't used as witty banter back and forth trying to get someone to socially withdraw(Which has never made much sense to me...)  They are more like political campaigns, working to slander or defame your opponents, make yourself look better, etc.  This feels more right...(Especially in a group setting)  But it isn't perfect because in the DFRPG your reputation is twofold.  The Supernatural one and the Mortal one.  In addition it doesn't work as well with the consequences, seeing as most of the time damage dealt by this should be a permanent consequence like "Social Pariah."

Anyway, staring the session after my PC's get back from preventing Nicodemus from stopping the crucifixion I want to use this, but I'm not sure quite how to work it out.

Any thoughts.

[Sanctaphrax]

Social stress can represent reputation, too. I'm not sure what the problem here is.

[EdgeOfDreams]

Remember that Dresden Files RPG does not define how long a combat turn takes.  You could set up a Presidential Election campaign as a single social combat in which each "round" of combat is a week on the campaign trail.

[UmbraLux]

Any thoughts.

Are you referring to Exalted?  If so, you may want to talk to TheMouse on RPG.net.  I think he's working on a FATE conversion.

[Aminar]

Not exalted...

Anyway, its more the interaction with the consequence system being off.

[EdgeOfDreams]

Anyway, its more the interaction with the consequence system being off.

Can you give more examples of what you dislike about the social consequence system?

Taking your "Social Pariah" example - to me, that's probably a Severe consequence (or maybe extreme, depending on how you look at it).  A Severe consequence takes a fairly long time to "heal", and even after the consequence slot has opened up again, the character may still be dealing with the repercussions.

[benign]

You don't need to deal with the fallout of in-game-events using the aspect and consequence system, you know.

Don't get me wrong, I love them. They offer an abstraction that gives nebulous mental and social setbacks real heft. But just because they are there doesn't mean you have to use them for everything.

If an enemy outflanks your characters socially over the course of an adventure, you could handle that with a severe social consequence. You could ask some or all of the players to rework one of their aspects to reflect their new status as social lepers. Or you could handle it like you would in any other game, letting it drive the narrative in sessions to come and keeping it mind whenever the players interact with someone who would be affected.

Your particular game will determine which of those approaches is appropriate, but at least keep the last one in mind. There are plenty of things that will happen in a game that have lasting repercussions, but don't warrant consequences or changing anyone's character sheet.

If none of that helps your issue, then I would like to hear a few more specifics on your problems with the system. Hearing what you don't like will help us figure out a way to make it work to your taste.

[UmbraLux]

Anyway, its more the interaction with the consequence system being off.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from.  I'm working on a Diaspora inspired model for play testing.

Essentially creating a list of relative zones, using maneuvers to move between zones and consequences to determine the permanency of such moves.  Take a seduction scene as a potential example:  zones might be "Intimacy, Affectionate, Just Friends, Acquaintances, Indifferent, and Unfriendly".  Maneuvers would be used to move yourself or your opponent to another zone, blocks ("I'm watching football.") would set up barriers between zones, and consequences would determine how permanent the move was...with extreme being essentially permanent.

[Silverblaze]

dont social stresses wipe at every new scene like normal stresses?

Hard to have week long stresses.

[EdgeOfDreams]

dont social stresses wipe at every new scene like normal stresses?

Hard to have week long stresses.

Yes, stress always clears at the end of a scene.  But how long is a scene? The game never defines it.  A conversation in a bar, followed by a bar fight might be one scene.  Or, a montage of political campaign stops over the course of three months could be a single scene.  It's all up to what makes sense in the current context of the game.

[UmbraLux]

As EdgeofDreams said, stress does go away at the end of a scene...which is a fairly flexible set of time.  Consequences however last multiple scenes to becoming permanent, depending on the level of consequence.

[Silverblaze]

Yes, stress always clears at the end of a scene.  But how long is a scene? The game never defines it.  A conversation in a bar, followed by a bar fight might be one scene.  Or, a montage of political campaign stops over the course of three months could be a single scene.  It's all up to what makes sense in the current context of the game.

Assuming nothing relevant to other aspects of play comes up in three months...Say another case file or something...yes?  Scenes remind me of how they measure time in White Wolf.  Which I like, but I don't.  The time system for scenes is a little to ill defined in my opinion.  Yeah it can be good, but it also can create situations where three months = one scene which I find annoying save for special circumstances.

[Aminar]

My issue is that a consequence to reputation, unlike a consequence to someones ego, should not harm their ability to function in the other arenas.  I'm thinking of giving each character a reputation score for the city and the Supernatural World.  From there that reputation will be used in the upcoming session and modified by attacks dealt to it, and attacks they deal. Consequences can be dealt, but they are only taggable in social situations where somebody would know of them and they will have a separate group set of social consequences that function for the whole party(IE one mild for the party, one moderate for the party, etc.  Unless somebody comes up with something better.

Or maybe I'll just drop the idea...  Leave social conflicts by the wayside, and do the political intrigue schtick in my other campaign where the rules allow for it...

[EdgeOfDreams]

My issue is that a consequence to reputation, unlike a consequence to someones ego, should not harm their ability to function in the other arenas.  I'm thinking of giving each character a reputation score for the city and the Supernatural World.  From there that reputation will be used in the upcoming session and modified by attacks dealt to it, and attacks they deal. Consequences can be dealt, but they are only taggable in social situations where somebody would know of them and they will have a separate group set of social consequences that function for the whole party(IE one mild for the party, one moderate for the party, etc.

Ok, that makes sense.  I've seen other people also post that they wished Social consequences were separate from Physical/Mental consequences.  A few comments:

* Keeping track of separate social consequences is perfectly fine, as they rarely have much effect on combat and magic anyway, unless you're in the habit of using social attacks as a way to "soften up" your players before throwing physical threats at them.  The Dresden Files RPG chooses to make all three types be on one consequence track for narrative reasons, but if you have different reasons for keeping them separate, whether for narrative or for realism, then go for it.

* A numerical reputation score could work, but that might involve working out some mechanics and add complexity to your game.  I'd tend to shy away from that mode, especially as reputation is usually more complex than just good or bad, positive or negative.  On the other hand, if you ARE going to have a numerical rep system, I do like the idea of having separate rep scores for different groups (Mundane Vs Supernatural) or even for specific factions (You might be popular with the Summer and Winter Courts, but not on good terms with the White Council).

* Aspects (and consequences ARE aspects) can only be tagged, invoked, or compelled by a character who is aware of that aspect.  That's just part of the default rules of the game.

* A set of Social consequences for the party makes sense to me IF the party is commonly viewed as a group by others.  So, for example, if the party is entirely made up of detective and police consultants for SI, it makes sense to me that others would have an opinion of SI as a whole that would be relevant.  But if the players do not always run in the same social circles and are only loosely joined by the coincidence of working a few cases together, I'm not sure a party-wide consequence works quite as well.

[UmbraLux]

My issue is that a consequence to reputation, unlike a consequence to someones ego, should not harm their ability to function in the other arenas. 

I understand your point of view though I don't quite agree completely.  To a point, social and mental consequences should affect how well you fight.  At best they're a distraction from combat and, at worst, they're motivations against self preservation. 

However, I don't really think they should heal at the same rate.  This alone makes me lean towards multiple tracks at times.

That said, I'll probably leave it as one consequence track purely for simplicity and game play.  No need to add more pieces to track.