Rules for Pets and Allies

[Sanctaphrax]

...I don't follow.

Are you proposing an entirely new system here? Or is this something else?

[Praxidicae]

Apologies if I was unclear.

My primary concern with the "companion mob" was that it might be too powerful if each one is a full statted companion. This might extend from on misunderstanding on my part regarding the concept, but it would appear to me that one PC could in effect create an entire party of fairly powerful npcs that follow them around.

My thought was that this would be putting too much power into the hands of 1 PC ("My main character stands back issuing orders whilst his Wizard cohort blasts the enemy with a fireball, his mercenary hireling snipes at the opposition leadership and the werewolf that's taken to following him around rips whatever is left to pieces...oh look they're all dead") I can see allowing characters 1 fully statted companion. But when a couple of stunts can net you an entire party of characters that can concievably do anything the other players characters can, I could see it stepping on some toes.

Thus I thought that if a player wanted a PC that's in effect the Gang leader, Cult Messiah or other controller of a large number of devoted followers then the rules already in DFRPG for minions might work best, allowing a group of 'disposable' mooks that could be summoned (not necessarily in the magical sense) as needed, would need minimal statting and are squishy enough that they can't simply be used to pound any conceivable threat into paste whilst the PC's stand back and twiddle their thumbs.

The rest was just an attempt thrown out during my lunch break to see if some form of stunt could be built to allow for this, I've not looked at my copy of YS so I can't see how much of what I remembered about the minion rules was correct, or even if what I proposed is practicable.

If I was incorrect in my interpretation of the 'Companion Mob' you mentioned then most of what I proposed could probably be thrown out...still like the Quirk idea though.

[Sanctaphrax]

Okay, that makes more sense.

You did get the minion rules in DFRPG a little wrong, because there aren't any. Which is what this thread is for.

I agree with you completely about quirks.

Given that a wizard or a werewolf will cost about 5 stunts, I'm not too worried about them as companions. I'm worried about the Submerged guy who takes 11 0-refresh mortal companions. I want "guy with an army" to be a viable concept, but I don't want it to be an incredibly powerful one.

I did write some fluffier "I have an army" stunts ages ago that added a Hiring trapping to some skill and let you make Declarations that minions were present.

But I'd really like something a bit less handwavey if possible.

[Sanctaphrax]

Let's start this up again.

So, Silverblaze, what do you think of the current state of affairs?

[Orladdin]

It'd be handy if the OP were updated to include links to the sub-posts with the rules which come as close to completed as you've gotten so far.  I want to catch up, but sifting through 7 pages for the gems is a little tedious, and it's been a while since I originally read this thread.

[Sanctaphrax]

Can't edit the OP, I'm not benign. And benign, unfortunately, isn't around anymore.

I can point you to my latest thoughts in replies #82 and #88, though.

[Praxidicae]

Looking back over this I think that by the look of things we have 2 seperate tracks here:

One for a character with a (semi)permanent hireling/companion. The equivalent of the DnD ranger who is followed around by a wolf (or the monk with the Fu Dog mentioned in another thread), or the guy who has a golem or summoned demon serving his purpose.

The second being the guy who can call upon an army of nameless mooks, ninjas or summoned beings at a moments notice.

Not sure if it's worth pursuing both, or if the second could be folded into the first. The second is usually something that falls within the purview of an NPC villain anyway, but might still be worth statting out for the fringe cases where a PC wants it.

[ways and means]

Looking back over this I think that by the look of things we have 2 seperate tracks here:

One for a character with a (semi)permanent hireling/companion. The equivalent of the DnD ranger who is followed around by a wolf (or the monk with the Fu Dog mentioned in another thread), or the guy who has a golem or summoned demon serving his purpose.

The second being the guy who can call upon an army of nameless mooks, ninjas or summoned beings at a moments notice.

Not sure if it's worth pursuing both, or if the second could be folded into the first. The second is usually something that falls within the purview of an NPC villain anyway, but might still be worth statting out for the fringe cases where a PC wants it.

The second also has a canon example in the series Binder and so for all those people who argue that the DFRP is a direct representative of DF verse there has to be some way to stat him.

[Orladdin]

The important thing with followers/cohorts/companions/etc is to make sure they A) don't overshadow any of the players and B) don't allow the "controlling" player to dominate the game (by being over-powered, unstoppable, what have you).  Since these "break" the action economy, they have to have reduced odds of succeeding to put them in-line with other stunts/powers.

The way I'm handling it in my game is a two-tier option:

For one refresh they get a companion.  This is an animal, spirit, or otherwise less-able companion than a human being.  As such, it cannot use basic equipment such as armor or guns.  This companion has a quality rating (QR) equal to 2-less than the main character's applicable skill (Rapport, Contacts, Presence, however they flavor that they "recruited" this helper).  The companion has one skill at that quality rating, two at QR-1 and three at QR-2.  The companion has 2 boxes on each stress track by default and can take no consequences.  The player can allocate refresh to purchase stunts/powers for the companion from their main character's pool if they wish.

For an additional refresh the companion is humanoid (or otherwise capable of using basic equipment) and gets an extra skill at QR.

So far, it's working fine.  It almost seems like it's not good enough, though, so I'm considering buffing it.  Better to underguess and make it better than overguess and have to nerf someone, IMO.


[Edit:] Ah, I see it's very similar to what you were proposing, Sanc.

[Orladdin]

My proposal for minions was:
Get 2 of them with the first refresh spent, each refresh spent would grant three more, but they each can only ever have a single stress box and 2 skills at QR-1.

They'd be fodder for any AoE or spray attacks, so if a crew is known for rolling with a million dudes, enemies would prep.  They'd be better used for recon or handling stuff in other areas-- but that jives with minions in pretty much any kind of literature or game.

No one had a character concept that used them, though, so I haven't had any chance to test/balance it at all.  This is just my recollection of initial concept.


[Edit:] My only real concern about either of these options comes into play at campaign skill cap: 6 and 7, respectively, when they gain high enough odds of succeeding on navel-gazing stunts with their prime skills.  I'm not sure if they break at that point, or if their reduced survivability in a high-power game would balance them again.  We're not quite there yet.

[Praxidicae]

Orladdin, you mentioned that you had read Kerberos Club and SotC, what do you think of some adaptation of the Minion trapping from Kerberos, or the stunt from SotC? Perhaps a mixture of the two?

[Orladdin]

Orladdin, you mentioned that you had read Kerberos Club and SotC, what do you think of some adaptation of the Minion trapping from Kerberos, or the stunt from SotC? Perhaps a mixture of the two?

The problem with SotC's rules for minions is that they are, really, intended as a GM-tool.  SotC also has a much higher survivability and campiness rating, so they would have to be severely adjusted for Dresden, I think. 

I like the idea of grouping them together in terms of stress (you "attack" the minion group, dealing 3 stress -- 3 minions die). It seems like it would help speed up fights, but you might need to beef the minions a bit to counter their reduced survivability.  You also couldn't use the minion-quality improvements, as anything more than single-stress box minions would break Dresden, since PCs don't start with more than two, unless they skill-up.  Their ability to form "mixed groups" which basically gives PCs free stress boxes also breaks Dresden for the same reason. 
I don't like that their "bonus" to rolls should escalate to such heights simply by fiat of large group numbers, too.
I'm sure it all probably works in SotC's ridiculous and bogged-down combat, but I get the feeling that the retrofit needed for Dresden would be too great.

Kerberous Club's minions trapping is kind of interesting, though.  A lot of it ties into the Strange Skills system Kerberous is known for.  The end result is somewhat similar to what I've done in my previous posts.  Though, since we don't have Kerberous' point granularity, it's harder to have such a detailed level of customization in Dresden without a wordy table of options and a static limit on how many you could take.  I just picked a good middle ground that seemed to be "about a refresh worth" and ran with it in mine. 
Again, no testing has been done on my suggested solution yet.

[Sanctaphrax]

Using separate stunt systems for important companions and armies of lame ones is very sensible. I think we should do that.

Hearing that Orladdin has found a system slightly weaker than my current idea to be (maybe) slightly too weak is quite encouraging.

I like that suggestion for minion mobs. I wouldn't worry about high-power games, since in my 18-Refresh game I've found that swarms of Zombies tend to get owned pretty easily. And zombies are tougher than anything a 6-cap character will get for a stunt.

How would you go about making minion mobs with Powers? It's a bit of an edge case, but it'd be nice if we could model a loyal flock of birds as well as a loyal team of soldiers.

[Orladdin]

Using separate stunt systems for important companions and armies of lame ones is very sensible. I think we should do that.

Hearing that Orladdin has found a system slightly weaker than my current idea to be (maybe) slightly too weak is quite encouraging.

Something I considered doing for modeling squires and the like, to make them a just bit more powerful, is to allow them to buy the same powers as their "owner" at half price (with a couple exceptions).  Since this doesn't give the "owner" access to new abilities, and the cohort performing them is strictly weaker than the owner performing them, it should work fine.  I'll be trying it out in two weeks at my next game and seeing how it goes. 

It also models most game worlds nicely, since someone usually apprentices/squires/whatever to learn the skills of the master.  It's a dually useful idea; both narrative and mechanical.  Pretty cool.

I like that suggestion for minion mobs. I wouldn't worry about high-power games, since in my 18-Refresh game I've found that swarms of Zombies tend to get owned pretty easily. And zombies are tougher than anything a 6-cap character will get for a stunt.

How would you go about making minion mobs with Powers? It's a bit of an edge case, but it'd be nice if we could model a loyal flock of birds as well as a loyal team of soldiers.

That's an interesting one.

The first step, I would think, is to figure out just how mechanically strong a group of minons are.  Once you know that, you can figure out the refresh cost that fits your desired power level (is it a stunt or a power? etc.)  After that, you can figure out just how useful a given stunt would be in the hands of minions.  Then, either reduce the number of mionions in a "group" to grant them all a stunt, or pay extra refresh to do it.

This would take some tweaking to find a universally acceptable solution, and I'm sure some powers (like shape-shifting) might have to be off-limits to minions.

[Silverblaze]

The important thing with followers/cohorts/companions/etc is to make sure they A) don't overshadow any of the players and B) don't allow the "controlling" player to dominate the game (by being over-powered, unstoppable, what have you).  Since these "break" the action economy, they have to have reduced odds of succeeding to put them in-line with other stunts/powers.

The way I'm handling it in my game is a two-tier option:

For one refresh they get a companion.  This is an animal, spirit, or otherwise less-able companion than a human being.  As such, it cannot use basic equipment such as armor or guns.  This companion has a quality rating (QR) equal to 2-less than the main character's applicable skill (Rapport, Contacts, Presence, however they flavor that they "recruited" this helper).  The companion has one skill at that quality rating, two at QR-1 and three at QR-2.  The companion has 2 boxes on each stress track by default and can take no consequences.  The player can allocate refresh to purchase stunts/powers for the companion from their main character's pool if they wish.

For an additional refresh the companion is humanoid (or otherwise capable of using basic equipment) and gets an extra skill at QR.

So far, it's working fine.  It almost seems like it's not good enough, though, so I'm considering buffing it.  Better to underguess and make it better than overguess and have to nerf someone, IMO.


[Edit:] Ah, I see it's very similar to what you were proposing, Sanc.

I like this:

I just have some issue with quality rating. I'm assuming as long as the PC can bull$**! his way around it: any skill (within reason) can function as the QR?


I also agree with Sanctaphrax that "armies" of minions should be handled differently than an important NPC/ally/buddy/pet.

I think the following should also be required.  The PC must have an aspect tied to his NPC/army/ally/buddy/pet. "My BFF from the cheerteam - Name X!" or "Fanatics die for me like lemmings"

I think the NPC/army/ally/buddy/pet needs to have an aspect (perhaps even the high concept to ensure loyalty) related to the person who bought them.

How do we feel about the NPC/buddy/ally/pet/army having any refresh at all?

 Can said entity aquire fate points?  I am inclined to say no unless the entity has a major impact on the story  OR is a part of a small game (player pool is 2 or less).

If refresh ratings are allowed, we have to assume the entity has a measure of free will. 

If refresh ratings are allowed what should that cost?

What happens to refresh (spent by the player) when said entity is destroyed? I would hope it is refunded.

Who should have control over the entity's actions? PC or GM?