Surprise attacks, how do they work?

[Ghsdkgb]

Not an ambush; that's pretty self-explanatory. But let's say I have two groups having a heated discussion, and one guy from one group chooses to just up and throw a fireball, or pull his gun and shoot, Indy-style.

Is his attack rolled against the defender's Alertness? Or Alertness to get a defense roll, and then Athletics as normal?

How does combat resolve after that? Everyone goes into the attack order as normal, including the original aggressor (with the first "round" basically being the one surprise attack, and second round follows Alertness order as normal)?

This is the way that makes most sense to me, but I'd like to hear where I might be wrong.

[devonapple]

My conservative answer is that, to achieve the effect you describe, the aggressor would have to create their own Ambush scenario by placing a Maneuver on the opponent (Deceit or whatever else you can justify, versus the opponent's Alertness or Empathy) "Doesn't See It Coming," and then, the next round, invoking that Aspect to get the opponent to roll 0 on their Defense.

If the aggressor wants to negate the entire opposing sides' defenses this way, then either a Zonewide maneuver against their Alertness or Empathy, or a Spray Attack Maneuver against just the ones you want to surprise, in case both sides occupy the same Zone.

After that, combat initiative works as normal.

But no, I see nothing in the rules other than what I've outline above that draws a distinction between "Ambush" and "Surprise" (which I feel is trying to wordwrangle different scales of effect out of what is essentially the same mechanism). Especially if the original scenario is a heated discussion, when tempers are already flaring and people may already have adrenaline percolating in their brains.

[Sanctaphrax]

Ordinary Ambush rules, replacing Stealth with Deceit and Alertness with Alertness or Empathy.

That's how I'd run it.

[admiralducksauce]

Ordinary Ambush rules, replacing Stealth with Deceit and Alertness with Alertness or Empathy.

That's how I'd run it.

I think I'd do it this way too, but because it's just one guy opening fire suddenly, if he actually does obtain that ambush condition, that first surprise round would only be an action for him.

Oooh, I've got an example! 

Kev and Rob are having a bit of an argument with the Irish mob and a bunch of goons.  It's heated enough - the mob killed Kev and Rob's friend earlier in the adventure - and Kev decides he's had enough talking.  He walks up to the main mob enforcer, asks "You the man who shot our friend?"

When the dude replies, "That's right," Kev rolls Deceit-
Deceit?  Well, in this case, I'd probably have Kev roll Intimidate.  He's just coming full-force, daring someone to try something funny.  So Kev rolls Intimidate and everyone else rolls... something... probably Empathy or Alertness, and IMO it'd all be individual rolls.  Now, in the example, Kev's total is higher than everyone else's, he draws his pistol, and shoots the main enforcer in the face.  Since the enforcer's defending at Mediocre, he's screwed.  Then we all go to normal initiative.  Despite Rob being on Kev's team, Rob doesn't get a surprise action in this situation.  If he fails to beat Kev's roll, he's just as surprised as anyone else, unless Kev and Rob specifically had some sort of signal or plan in place.

Now, some of the goons or Rob might have been better rollers and beaten Kev.  In that case, I'd have run 1 round with just the people who made their rolls, then move to normal initiative after that.

[sinker]

Additionally you could probably have allies invoke aspects to be expecting trouble, sort-of like a fortuitous arrival. So maybe Rob's "Been around for a while" and he knows Kev's probably going to start something.

[Becq]

I tend to be of the opinion that in the sort of scenarios discussed above, the ambush rules are overkill.  The combatants-to-be are primed and ready, and it seems to me that although it may only take seconds (or even fractions of a second) it takes to draw a weapon, gather will, or swing a punch, it takes far less time to duck or dodge.  The ambush rules are fine for total surprise situations where the defender is unprepared or unable to defend themselves (ie, true ambush situations, or possibly even sudden attacks during an otherwise peaceful conversation that gave no reason to anticipate sudden violence).

I think that simply attacking first should give one or both of the following advantages:

First, whoever decides to attack first gets the first swing.  For the first exchange, the person who declared first has the initiative automatically (or optionally, perhaps treat this as 'Supreme Initiative' from Supernatural Speed).

Second, if the attacker was trying for a sucker punch, then give him a 'free' maneuver to place an aspect on a target of his choice to reflect the sudden nature of the attack (ex: "Didn't see that one coming, didja?").  This maneuver (which should probably involve the attacker's Deceit against the target's Alertness or Empathy, and ) is assumed to take place during the conversation (or social combat) immediately before the transition to physical combat, and can be invoked for the usual bonus to the attacker's first attack.

If the defender has their guard down, then the normal ambush rules are probably more appropriate.  An example of this might be meeting someone (who doesn't recognize you as an enemy) in a bar, chatting amicably for a bit, then suddenly clubbing them over the head with a beer bottle.

At least, those are my thoughts.