Author Topic: Just a question to clear something up  (Read 6559 times)

Offline devonapple

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2011, 07:10:56 PM »
I am working backwards from the side note with Billy and Harry (in the Combat section) recommending that a 0-shift Fists attack (for the attacker and defender tied, with victory ostensibly going to the attacker, but the attacker is using Fists and no weapon, so the net damage is 0) be retroactively converted into a successful Fists Maneuver.

Do other folks treat Evocation maneuvers (in which the shifts of the spell meet or exceed the target's defending skill) as automatic, assuming a successful Control (Discipline) check?

Does a target resist an Evocation Maneuver by rolling versus the Control Check shifts + Evocation Maneuver shifts?
Or just the Evocation Maneuver shifts?
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Offline computerking

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2011, 08:45:04 PM »

Do other folks treat Evocation maneuvers (in which the shifts of the spell meet or exceed the target's defending skill) as automatic, assuming a successful Control (Discipline) check?

Does a target resist an Evocation Maneuver by rolling versus the Control Check shifts + Evocation Maneuver shifts?
Or just the Evocation Maneuver shifts?
I always thought for maneuvers the defense is against the Control Check shifts. So if Zatanna casts an attempt to Maneuver at 6 Shifts, and rolled +7, the McTarget would defend against +7. If McTarget rolled a +5 or +6 he would get a Sticky Aspect, If he rolled a +7 He would get a transitory Aspect, and +8 or more prevents any Aspect at all.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 09:44:56 PM by computerking »
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 08:53:40 PM »
I always thought for maneuvers the defense is against the Control Check shifts. So if Zatanna casts an attempt to Maneuver at 6 Shifts, and rolled +7, the McTarget would defend against +7. If McTarget rolled a +5 or +6 he would get a Sticy Aspect, If he rolled a +7 He would get a transotory Aspect, and +8 or more prevents any Aspect at all.

So the Evocation Maneuver shifts are just setting the bar for the Control Check that the opponent has to resist.

This sounds like how I've been running it.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 09:16:45 PM »
It is my understanding that the initial roll to resist an evocation maneuver is compared to the control roll of the spell, while any later attempts to remove the aspect (via a 'counter-maneuver') is compared to the shifts of non-duration power.
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Offline sinker

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2011, 12:10:57 AM »
Hmm, as I understand it the control roll makes no difference whatsoever (unless it fails to control the spell) the shifts of power required to pull off the maneuver are equal to the shifts of resistance (I.E. the defense roll).

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2011, 12:58:51 AM »
A re-reading of the rules forces an adjustment to my interpretation.
An evocation maneuver must have shifts of power at least equal to the target's defense skill (not roll).
The defense against such a maneuver is compared to the control roll.
Removing the maneuver at a later date...I'm no longer sure of.
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Offline sinker

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2011, 01:11:48 AM »
The defense against such a maneuver is compared to the control roll.

I'm wondering where you get that from. Not that I'm challenging your interpretation, but it does seem like the book is light on this part, and if you've found some sort of further explanation I'd love to see it.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2011, 01:14:42 AM »
I'm wondering where you get that from. Not that I'm challenging your interpretation, but it does seem like the book is light on this part, and if you've found some sort of further explanation I'd love to see it.
Extrapolation from YS207's discussion of non-evocation maneuvers, since the evocation section doesn't seem to modify that
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Offline Becq

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2011, 01:56:21 AM »
As near as I can tell, I largely agree with Tedronai: evocation maneuvers don't involve a defense roll as such.  They *do* require a number of shifts of power that scales to the resisting skill (and therefore implies a control roll needing to be at least that high, with backlash allowing success and fallout causing failure).  So my read is that for evocation maneuvers, the target is in effect treated as resisting with their base skill (+0 on the dice).

I don't think it would be unreasonable to allow a roll to resist, though I'd certainly allow the caster to dedicate more shifts of power to the maneuver (ie, a number of shifts greater than the target's resistance) to make the defense more difficult.

As to trying to counter the evocation maneuver once in play, I agree the rules are ... light on the subject.  My take (based on the rules, but not spelled out in the rules) is that it should be handled in much the same way that countering a mundane maneuver is, but with the spell effect resisting the attempt.  So if the caster did the maneuver at the baseline strength of 3, then that is what the victim would need to roll to undo the maneuver.  This also leaves open the option for the spellcaster to overpower the maneuver, therefore making it harder for the target to remove the effect before it expires.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2011, 02:22:42 AM »
Resisted evocation maneuvers require a minimum of 3 shifts and at least <skill rating> shifts when the defensive skill is rated higher than Good.  (YS252)  Since a resisted maneuver is also a contest, the spell caster must also beat the victim's defensive roll if it's higher than the flat skill rating.  (YS193)

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Offline Becq

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2011, 04:13:55 AM »
Since a resisted maneuver is also a contest, the spell caster must also beat the victim's defensive roll if it's higher than the flat skill rating.  (YS193)
This is certainly true for mundane maneuvers, and I thought it was true for magical ones.  However, I noticed that the rules for evocation attacks specifically noted that the control roll counted as an attack roll and was resolved using the mundane attack rules.  The evocation maneuvers rules, however, made no mention of a resistance roll, and instead provided the threshold equal to the resistance skill (minimum 3).

I'm inclined to use your interpretation as a house rule, if nothing else (as I mentioned in my previous post), but I'm not entirely sure whether or not that was the designers' intention (though it may have been).

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2011, 05:20:15 AM »
I'm inclined to use your interpretation as a house rule, if nothing else (as I mentioned in my previous post), but I'm not entirely sure whether or not that was the designers' intention (though it may have been).
If you want more references, look as the rules for opposed thaumaturgy maneuvers (YS264).  They require you to beat base skill plus die roll for a "sure thing".  (For temporary maneuvers, not talking about the take-out version.)
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Offline CrackedOzy

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2011, 03:43:25 AM »
Since a power 1 evocation attack with a control roll of 7 and a power 6 evocation attack with a control roll of 7 both have the same effect, what would be the point/benefit of doing the power 6 spell? Other than the option to take the margin of failure as backlash and having the spell go through anyways?

Also is there any negative result from rolling way higher on your control roll? For some reason I thought there was a situation where rolling too good on a spell came back to bite you in the ass.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2011, 03:55:40 AM »
A power 1 evocation attack is weapon 1, a power 6 evocation attack is weapon 6. They don't have the same effect.

So far as I know, a higher roll is always better.

Offline CrackedOzy

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Re: Just a question to clear something up
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2011, 04:16:34 AM »
A power 1 evocation attack is weapon 1, a power 6 evocation attack is weapon 6. They don't have the same effect.

Ok, lemme rephrase.

Situation A: spell with power 1 attack, rolls Discipline, gets a Superb (5) roll, target rolls Fair (2) defense, takes a Good (3) stress hit

Situation B: spell with power 4 attack, rolls Discipline, gets a Superb (5) roll, target rolls Fair (2) defense, takes a Good (3) stress hit

Did I miss anything? What is the difference between the two? Or am I wrong?
Would the 1 or 4 power be added on top of the 5 roll, so they'd take 4 or 7 stress, respectively?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 04:18:06 AM by CrackedOzy »