Magic circles.

[noom777]

How does a magic circle works?Is it like a threshold?
Can it be broken by physical means?I have read the books but I can't remember how it was used.The only example I remember is when the frog demon(Storm Front) attacked Dresden in his house.Why the demon couldn't drop a chair to break the circle in the basement in which Dresden and Susan have found shelter?

[computerking]

How does a magic circle works?Is it like a threshold?
Can it be broken by physical means?I have read the books but I can't remember how it was used.The only example I remember is when the frog demon(Storm Front) attacked Dresden in his house.Why the demon couldn't drop a chair to break the circle in the basement in which Dresden and Susan have found shelter?

It is like a threshold, though how much so I am not sure, there's a lot of people who know more about that than I do. but for the final question (And note that this isbased on some passages in the novels, and not Rules from the RPG books), circles like that can only be broken by Mortal acts,  So the Demon couldn't get through.

(click to show/hide)

Also, in the same book, Harry broke Victor Sells' circle by throwing a film container across it.

[UmbraLux]

How does a magic circle works?Is it like a threshold?
Can it be broken by physical means?

Circles are somewhat equivalent to zero point thresholds unless you've also added a block or ward.  They can be broken, though what breaks them tends to change from one group to another. 

[wyvern]

My normal ruling on circles: a circle is a lore-based maneuver, placing an aspect on the scene of "magic circle".  That aspect can then be used to trigger a compel to, for example, hold off a demon, or cause a spellcaster's magic to fail.  Of course, it's easy enough for a mortal to break a circle; I'd tend to rule a supplemental action would be sufficient if you're in the same zone.

[archmagelite]

I might allow for a magic circle to be a conviction or lore based block against supernatural creatures. With the caveat that if they break the block your defenceless. Great for spirits and the odd magical manuever, but try it against anything with a physical form...

[sinker]

As far as the game is concerned, circles are thresholds and work exactly the same.

Mechanically there are a few ways that you can deal with them. You could treat them as an aspect, requiring someone to maneuver, and then invoke for effect. This makes it entirely up to the GM how effective the circle is, but is the easiest way to do it. You could also treat them as a lore based block against supernatural stuff. Also relatively easy, but a little off. Finally you could treat them as a ward ritual that falls under the common ritual trapping of lore. That one's a little harder to do, but has a much more concrete effect.

[ways and means]

I allow circles to be used for wards on the fly (either with evothaum or enchanted items).

[sinker]

Meh, to be honest I'm starting to think that the common belief that thaumaturgy can't be used in conflict is something that we've actually made up here on the boards. I'm starting to catch a couple of references in the book that lead me to believe that as long as it requires no preparation (or requires no prep at that time) then it can be don in a similar time frame.

[Sanctaphrax]

As far as I know there are no actual rules for magic circles.

The entry for Thaumaturgy on YS page 181 says:

Thaumaturgy can't ever be used quickly enough to be much use in a fight.

[Becq]

Circles are tough.  The fact that Butters can make one implies that they don't require much in the way of training, but their effectiveness is pretty strong.

I think wyvern is very close, though.  The one thing that's missing is that the compel that's triggered is against the monster's high concept.  So creating the circle is a maneuver creating a 'circle' aspect.  That aspect is then triggered for effect -- with the effect being that other characters who try to cross the circle are affected as appropriate to their high concept.  Mortals trying to cross?  No problem, and the effect ends because the circle was broken.  Ghosts trying to cross?  This would trigger a compel against their high concept.  Trying to resist this compel would probably require a Fate point and something along the lines of a test of the ghost's Discipline (or Conviction?) against the circle creator's Lore or Conviction (as archmagelite suggested).

And all this actually fits within the rules as written, too...

Summary: Drawing a circle is basically an invitation for the GM to compel affected creature's high concepts.

[sinker]

@Santcaphax And yet there are examples of thaumaturgic rituals taking place in conflict. Weird.

[Sanctaphrax]

The rules are not totally consistent. It`s to be expected from an RPG of this size.

[zenten]

@Sanctaphrax it says be of much use, not that it can never be done or that it will never be useful.  Using the default equipment that comes from your base Lore would be very difficult in a fight, and pulling off the sort of stuff required to raise the complexity would be even harder.

But if a wizard wants to spend a bunch of fate points invoking various aspects to raise the complexity above zero and roll at a rate of one roll per exchange I see nothing wrong with using thaumaturgy in a fight.

[ARedthorn]

Simplest solution- Conviction based block against all non-mortal forces.

This is, in terms of game effect, much like a ward, without being high-magic.
Lets mortals throw one off if they know how, and have the focus of mind to do it.
The various references to summoning (both in the books and in the rpg book) suggest strongly that circles aren't perfect- sometimes, things can break through if your attention wavers or your will simply isn't up to the task of what's being held in... as a block, it can fail, but rarely will... and is perfectly suited to conviction (maybe discipline?).
Anything that gets past a block negates it completely- so mortal will + physical action across the circle breaks it just like a block.

I might go a step farther and let it get some bonuses from things like blood (inflict P stress on self to improve block), or perhaps even a flat +2 to block strength to represent that you don't need a massive Knight-of-the-Cross level Conviction score to be able to fend off a lower demon with one.


The problem with handling it in terms of a maneuver is that you only get one free compel against the critter's supernatural high-concept... and then you're pretty well boned. While this can represent the "circles can fail" mentioned above, I don't think it does so well, or fairly... especially in circumstances where there are several attacks against the circle at once from multiple weak sources, as opposed to a single massive blow from an arch-demon.

[noom777]

Is it possible for a circle to be broken by a throwing object?For example a demon thowing a chair to the occupants of the circle.