Help w/ 2 Mortal Stunts

[Daddy Warpig]

i'm playing a cop, Zack Donovan. These are two Stunts I'd like to use. I'm new to Dresden and could use some feedback to help tune up the mechanics.

"Freeze, Police!": Zack's devotion to justice is intimidating. So long as he's confronting a real or suspected wrongdoer, he can use his Presence instead of Intimidation to Threaten a suspect (Dresden, "Your Story", 133). Threaten is an attack that deals Mental stress.

"Do What's Right Here...": Zack has supreme confidence in his authority, both legal and moral. Even in instances where he lacks legal authority, his desire to see justice done gives him the confidence to talk wrongdoers and suspects into doing what's right. Using Presence, he can talk criminals (or suspected criminals) into surrendering, convince them to confess (or reveal other information), and otherwise listen to him, even when its not in their best interests.

These two Stunts both play into his identity as a police officer. They provide explicit benefits in pursuit of his job, or even in pursuit of justice (such as pursuing a creature that would otherwise be outside of his jurisdiction).

[UmbraLux]

"Freeze, Police!": Zack's devotion to justice is intimidating. So long as he's confronting a real or suspected wrongdoer, he can use his Presence instead of Intimidation to Threaten a suspect (Dresden, "Your Story", 133). Threaten is an attack that deals Mental stress.

"...in certain situations..." intimidation may cause mental stress.  With that caveat, this seems a reasonable stunt.  (It's not reasonable if it allows causing mental stress any time you use the threaten trapping.)

"Do What's Right Here...": Zack has supreme confidence in his authority, both legal and moral. Even in instances where he lacks legal authority, his desire to see justice done gives him the confidence to talk wrongdoers and suspects into doing what's right. Using Presence, he can talk criminals (or suspected criminals) into surrendering, convince them to confess (or reveal other information), and otherwise listen to him, even when its not in their best interests.

This seems problematic - it's using a stunt to do something usually requiring an entire social conflict scene.  I'd suggest rephrasing it to giving a +1 to a skill when talking someone into 'doing the right thing'.  Presence usually won't be the skill for that - not unless you have another stunt to use it for a Rapport or Deceit trapping.

[computerking]

I'm not sure about a single Intimidation attack inflicting Mental stress. From what I've seen, Mental Stress dealt by Mortals is usually in a Torture/Brainwashing situation, as Mental stress represents an attempt to change/destroy your fundamental self. Just scaring someone into complying should be Social Stress.

[Daddy Warpig]

Let's take a step back:

"Freeze, Police": What I'd like to do is to allow Zack to use Presence to scare a crook (or suspected crook or malefactor) into surrendering. I don't know the game well enough to phrase this in mechanics.

"Do What's Right Here...": Again, I'm not sure how to express this mechanically, but it's intended to represent those moments in cop shows where the "good cop" talks the guy into giving up evidence/confessing, or surrendering, even if they don't want to, or it might harm their interests to do so.

If this is best expressed as a bonus to some skill check (Rapport) in certain situations, I'm game. (I'm playing "Deus Ex: Human Revolution" right now, and you have to do this at multiple points.)

I guess my core problem is, I don't really know how Dresden represents talking people into doing things. Social Stress? Once I know that, it may be easier to mechanically describe what I want to do.

[UmbraLux]

"Freeze, Police": What I'd like to do is to allow Zack to use Presence to scare a crook (or suspected crook or malefactor) into surrendering. I don't know the game well enough to phrase this in mechanics.

Using the Threaten trapping is a good start and the core of the stunt you've written above looks pretty good.  I was just trying to point out that mental stress is rarely going to be caused by the Threaten trapping...not unless you're using someone's phobia against them, torturing them, or something equivalent.  Think of mental stress as causing disorders such as post traumatic stress or a variety of other mental health problems.  Mental stress is not going to happen from from a simple "Do X or I shoot!"

"Do What's Right Here...": Again, I'm not sure how to express this mechanically, but it's intended to represent those moments in cop shows where the "good cop" talks the guy into giving up evidence/confessing, or surrendering, even if they don't want to, or it might harm their interests to do so.

If this is best expressed as a bonus to some skill check (Rapport) in certain situations, I'm game. (I'm playing "Deus Ex: Human Revolution" right now, and you have to do this at multiple points.)

Assuming your cop uses ethical means, I'd recommend making this a bonus to either Intimidation's Social Attacks trapping or Rapport's Chit-Chat trapping.

I guess my core problem is, I don't really know how Dresden represents talking people into doing things. Social Stress? Once I know that, it may be easier to mechanically describe what I want to do.

Mechanically, talking someone into surrendering is going to be a conflict, probably social, which ends in either concession or takeout.  It is a conflict though...which means the target is probably resisting. 

[Daddy Warpig]

"Do What's Right Here...": Zack excels at convincing people to do the right thing. He gains a +3 bonus to Rapport checks when convincing criminals or suspects to do what is right, such as revealing evidence (on themselves or others), confessing to a crime, or turning themselves in. Restriction: This Stunt doesn't work on creatures with no conscience (including many nonhuman monsters) or no notion of right or wrong (such as psychopaths.)

Notes: +2 is the normal bonus for Stunts, which work in restricted conditions (such as hiding in the crowd). This Stunt is even more restricted than usual, being only useful against things that understand and accept what right and wrong is, so I increased the bonus to +3.

If this is inapplicable, then I'll keep it at +2.

"Give It Up!": Zack's devotion to seeing justice done is imposing. For the purposes of the Threat trapping (Dresden RPG, "Your Story", 133) he can use his Presence instead of Intimidation.

Notes: This second is a pretty stock usage of a Stunt, at least according to "Your Story", 147. I think it passes muster pretty easily.

Thanks for all the comments, UmbraLux and computerking.

[UmbraLux]

"Do What's Right Here...": Zack excels at convincing people to do the right thing. He gains a +3 bonus to Rapport checks when convincing criminals or suspects to do what is right, such as revealing evidence (on themselves or others), confessing to a crime, or turning themselves in. Restriction: This Stunt doesn't work on creatures with no conscience (including many nonhuman monsters) or no notion of right or wrong (such as psychopaths.)

Notes: +2 is the normal bonus for Stunts, which work in restricted conditions (such as hiding in the crowd). This Stunt is even more restricted than usual, being only useful against things that understand and accept what right and wrong is, so I increased the bonus to +3.

If this is inapplicable, then I'll keep it at +2.

You'll want to discuss that with your group - some may allow it.  A slight caution though - I don't know of any published stunts granting a +3.

"Give It Up!": Zack's devotion to seeing justice done is imposing. For the purposes of the Threat trapping (Dresden RPG, "Your Story", 133) he can use his Presence instead of Intimidation.

Notes: This second is a pretty stock usage of a Stunt, at least according to "Your Story", 147. I think it passes muster pretty easily.

Thanks for all the comments, UmbraLux and computerking.

No problem!  Welcome to the forums and I hope you enjoy DFRPG!

[Sanctaphrax]

Give It Up! looks good.

Do What's Right Here is more questionable. You see, there's a (small) controversy of sorts about how much stunts can do to boost social attacks.

Some say they are limited to +1 because the rules say stunts can only give +1 to attacks. Others say that they can give +2 because there are canonical examples of stunts that do that.

Given the latter interpretation of the rules, it's probably fine. +3 is a lot, but I wouldn't expect it to come up often.

PS: Welcome onboard.

[Katarn]

(as everyone's said, welcome.)

As has been said, Give It Up! looks good, nice work.

As for Do What's Right Here, I would favor +1, maybe +2.  IMO +2 should only be for super-specific situations that really restrict use of said stunt.  For example, if this stunt only worked on Summer Fae, it's focused enough I'd support the +2.  People with consciences is a much broader group.  Also, considering a Fate Point gives you +2 (which is a decent boost to a roll already, +3 is very large).

Ultimately, it comes down to your group.  If you go with the +3, perhaps allow each player to have one (and only one) +3 stunt as a "super-stunt" that each player has honed to a high state (+3).

[Taustealthsuit]

The first one sounds great, I would say that he actually has to acting as a police officer maybe even pull his badge and arresting someone.  I don't think they have to be a criminal, but I think your character needs to think they are.

The second stunt is actually really cool.  It a very cop thing to do, and not something I have ever seen done in a role playing game.  It might take some tweaking to get just right, but it is defiantly worth trying.  You might want to require the character to actually encourage the target of his repport rolls to do something that is I the targets best interest.  "give me the gun, this only ends badly if you shoot that kid," or "let me help you here, just giveme something.  Just write down what happened on this pad of paper."

I don't know if those quotes were great.

Humans are so conditioned to follow rightful authority, especially cops, I think these stunts are great.  You might also say it only works on mortals, or characters with a positive refresh, you are appealing to humanity here.

This isn't exactly on topic, but I totally think this guy should be able to focus his belief through his badge.  Isn't a badge a powerful symbol of what this guy thinks is true and good.  Sounds as good as a cross to me.

[crusher_bob]

I guess my core problem is, I don't really know how Dresden represents talking people into doing things. Social Stress? Once I know that, it may be easier to mechanically describe what I want to do.

Winning a social conflict against them.  But remember that people only take consequences if they 'care' enough to and are important enough to the story to have consequences.

So, for example, an intimidate total of 5, vs a defense of 2 would normally be enough to take out someone with only 2 stress boxes.

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Also, remember to be more explicit with defining the end state you want in the conflict.  You don't want them to stop, exactly.  No, the end state you want if for them to be arrested.  So your 'stop!' command, may instead be something like a block against athletics (to keep them from running away), so that you can engage them in a more drawn out social conflict, which then ends with them being arrested.

[Harboe]

I'd do them like so:

"Freeze, Police!": Inflict +2 stress when successfully hitting someone with the Threaten trapping of Intimidate.
OR
"Freeze, Police!" Add +1 to the Threaten trapping of Intimidate.

"Do What's Right Here..." Add +1 to Rapport when used to make a suspect give themselves or others up, as long as these people have a sense of conscience.
OR
"Do What's Right Here..." Inflict +2 stress when successfully hitting someone with the Chit-Chat trapping of Rapport.