ritual to track someone down on the other side

[Skhirocco]

Hello,
I'm currently the GM for our DFRPG campaign. It's the first time I've been the GM, and so far I've been able to handle problems occuring during play quite well, I think. Today, our wizard player wanted to track a missing person down through a tracking ritual. On the one hand, I didn't expect him to do this, even though it's logical to (want to) do so. On the other hand, there are some complications. For one, the group decided during world creation that this missing person and the reasons for her disappearance, were to be something big in the setting (and the players know these reasons). Another problem is, that the antagonists, who kidnapped her, took her to the Nevernever (what the players do not know). I'm wondering now, if the tracking ritual (performed on the mortal side of things) would still work. Could it still work? The wizard has some hair to make the connection and Lore at Superb, but could his magic reach the other side? If so, how? How difficult should it be, speaking shifts-wise and in terms of magical knowledge and paraphernalia (--> Lore requirements)? If not, what could I do to not just 'burst his bubble' by saying: "No, you can't do that. The ritual doesn't work". For today, I asked the player to be patient by hinting that the ritual wouldn't be that easy and I wouldn't feel comfortable with handling it on the fly.
Any ideas would be very much appreciated,
Skhirocco.

[wyvern]

Well, the tracking spells that Harry used point to where the person is.  Given a ritual like that - it'd fail.  But - here's the important part - the fact that it failed would, itself, be important information; it would tell the wizard that the person no longer exists in this world - either killed and the body incinerated, or moved to the nevernever or the Outside.

One can also imagine a tracking ritual that follows a person's path.  In which case, it'd work, right up to the location of that transition to the nevernever - with, again, similar conclusions.

[Richard_Chilton]

If I recall correctly, there have been a couple of times that Harry has not gotten a result with tracking spells and he said the target was either dead or on the otherside...

But now I'm thinking about trying to find Molly in Prove Guilty and I can't quite remember how that one worked out.

Richard

[HobbitWarrior]

If I recall correctly, there have been a couple of times that Harry has not gotten a result with tracking spells and he said the target was either dead or on the otherside...

But now I'm thinking about trying to find Molly in Prove Guilty and I can't quite remember how that one worked out.

Richard

I can't remember the exact words, but I think I remember that spell working a little different than his normal tracking spell.  The words, "finding where she'd been instead of where she is" rings a bell, but I might be confusing that with something else.  I do remember though that he did follow the trail right to the point she entered the nevernever and then did a different one when he got in.

[UmbraLux]

I'm wondering now, if the tracking ritual (performed on the mortal side of things) would still work. Could it still work?

It could but it won't be easy. 

The wizard has some hair to make the connection and Lore at Superb, but could his magic reach the other side? If so, how? How difficult should it be, speaking shifts-wise and in terms of magical knowledge and paraphernalia (--> Lore requirements)?

The crossing between worlds for the spell would be approximately the same difficulty to open a path for a traveler.  So the tracking spell needs to be increased by at least that much.

If not, what could I do to not just 'burst his bubble' by saying: "No, you can't do that. The ritual doesn't work". For today, I asked the player to be patient by hinting that the ritual wouldn't be that easy and I wouldn't feel comfortable with handling it on the fly.

I'd have him set up his spell and tell me how many shifts he's put into it.  Unless he goes for overkill, it's probably not going to be enough to pierce the barrier between worlds so I'd tell him it fails.  Then I'd have him roll Lore and give him one possible reason of failure per shift of success.  Reasons would include everything from crossing the barrier between worlds, to being dead or simply behind a ward or threshold of high value.  Perhaps a few more reasons depending on the situation and Lore result.

Basically, he doesn't succeed but does gain clues or ideas.

If it matters, I ballpark thaumaturgy complexity requirements for skill replacement by adding the number of shifts needed for success by skill alone to the number of shifts needed to move the timeframe down from a reasonable real life time frame to a single scene (unless the character is skipping scenes to make time frame longer) and then add any wards, threshholds, or other barriers. 

A normal tracking spell is something along the lines of 3 + opponent's Stealth (or appropriate skill) a few days or even a week unless the trail if obvious, short, and recent.  Moving that down to a scene is about 6 shifts.  Call it ~12 shifts for a Good result against Good Stealth shortened to a scene.  On top of that, you'll need to add the value of any barriers the spell needs to pierce.  Every threshold, ward, or world barrier.  I tend to ballpark distance and keep the entire city as a single zone for the purposes of a tracking spell. 

So assuming you'd normally run ~8 shifts to cross into the Nevernever, the tracking spell should have at least 20 shifts to be successful.  More if wards or extreme distances are a factor.  It's doable with planning...but probably won't be done until they realize it's required.

[spac3_pop3]

During the Summer Knight case, Harry used a tracking spell to find the entrance to Chicago-over-Chicago using a piece of the Stone Table that the Gatekeeper gave him.  So the canon does say it is possible to track across worldly boundries, albeit the Stone Table thing might be an exception being as it's such a powerful artifact, etc.

[Tsunami]

To find something in the nevernever, you need to cast the spell from inside the nevernever.

That is how i would run it. This would be in keeping with what we have seen in the Books. Harry tries tracking Maggie in Changes, and he says that he tried from "the nevernever side" as well. To me, that suggests that magic does not cross significantly into the nevernever. The same goes for when tracking Ivy in SF iirc.

Also, if the target is supposed to be hidden extremely well, then the spell will simply fail.
Look at Ivy in Small Favor. She was hidden inside a powerful circle. Nobody could find her by magic, not Harry, not Luccio... not even friggin Mab.

So, taken to the Nevernever, and protected by powerful magic. (Which would fit the fact that the disappearance in supposed to be something big in the scenario) That would mean that a tracking spell simply fails.
If the players insist on creating a humongous ritual to overcome this, make the preparations of the ritual and the gathering of the materials the challenge in itself.

[Skhirocco]

Thank you all for your very helpful replies. I now think that I'll find a satisfying way to make this work. :-)
If anyone has anymore suggestions, I won't mind though. ^^ The more the better.

Regards,
Skhirocco

[devonapple]

I wanted to send my players to a location they needed to investigate. The place was supernaturally locked-down, but still on this place, which I wanted them to know, so I had tracking spells lead up to the nearest potential doorway and then abruptly drop, as if they had been acting as a bloodhound following a trail.