Mundain Armor and when to apply it.

[VVolf]

Here's an interesting quandary...

A character in our game made a resource roll to buy an Kevlar Plated trench coat, which as military gear would constitute Armor 2.
Since then this armor bonus has been applied to Punches, claws, and Ax-swings. My mind keeps going back to the argument between Micheal and Sonya that Micheal's armor wouldn't stop bullets but Sonya's Kevlar wouldn't stop blades or claws.
On one hand I don't want to punish the player who made the resource roll every time he's facing something that not what the armor was designed to protect against.
On the other hand, I don't want the players who spent refresh for toughness powers to get armor to feel like they spent that refresh for something they could have gotten without it.

I'm curious to see what y'all think of this problem.   

[zenten]

There's modern military combat armour that would protect against all of that.  If a player buys that (or makes something equivalent) then it should be fine.  The key is to have both Kevlar like stuff, and hard plates.

[wyvern]

The other key is to keep that kevlar plated trench coat in mind as an aspect.  And, every now and then when it's appropriate, throw a compel at it.  Maybe the police get suspicious.  Maybe it's just too hot to wear comfortably.  Maybe the room he just walked into is filled with giant kevlar-eating moths.  Whatever.

[admiralducksauce]

I can spend refresh on Claws and have Weapon:2, or I can go make a Resources roll or have a reasonable Guns or Weapons skill and have Weapon:2 just the same.  Don't unnecessarily punish your player for not knowing minutiae of modern armors; if his desire is "Armor:2 trench coat", then assign an appropriate difficulty to get the job done with Resources and he can have Armor:2.  Maybe if he just barely makes the roll, then maybe it's not proof against stabbing weapons or something.  Or if he fails by 1, maybe he couldn't get the strike plates and so rifle calibers ignore it.  Otherwise I don't see a reason other than GM pique to be messing with a reasonable request like this.

[tetrasodium]

Here's an interesting quandary...

A character in our game made a resource roll to buy an Kevlar Plated trench coat, which as military gear would constitute Armor 2.
Since then this armor bonus has been applied to Punches, claws, and Ax-swings. My mind keeps going back to the argument between Micheal and Sonya that Micheal's armor wouldn't stop bullets but Sonya's Kevlar wouldn't stop blades or claws.
On one hand I don't want to punish the player who made the resource roll every time he's facing something that not what the armor was designed to protect against.
On the other hand, I don't want the players who spent refresh for toughness powers to get armor to feel like they spent that refresh for something they could have gotten without it.

I'm curious to see what y'all think of this problem.

If it's causingproblems...
There are different ratings for body armor (lettered I think) based on the types of strikes they protect against.  look into prison guard and riot gear armor I think  Tell the player that x+y rated armor would be away higher resource roll & to pick one for going forward.  the low velocity (compared to a bullet)of a knife/claw keeps the kevlar vest designed for bullets from working well & the protective pads are in different locations (i.e. stabbed in the side/kidney in melee is more common than being shot from that angle) 

If it's not & your just worried
elemental attacks ignore it pretty well, that's not  just magic too...  fire hoses & moltov cocktails are totslly mundane sources.beanbag guns are another  toss in something occasionally  to mix things up.

[devonapple]

As may have been suggested before, these "vulnerabilities" could simply be the function of Assessments or Declarations revealing an Aspect which can get invoked, providing a +2 to an opponent's roll, rather than having to map out which armors function against which types of damage. Like Johnny Sniper using a Guns Maneuver to place the Aspect "Vulnerable Spot" or an evil cultist making a Scholarship Maneuver to place the Aspect "Armor Burns If It Gets Hot Enough" on an opposing rent-a-cop.

And if the players wants an armor with an additional Aspect to tag for defense, then that can increase the Resources roll can be a Craftsmanship Declaration made by an allied armorer. In this case, the player can then invoke the Aspect "My Armorer Thought Of EVERYTHING" to counter the Aspect created by the example Maneuvers.

[Sanctaphrax]

Noncombat physical stress ignores armour too. Environmental hazards and poisons and the like.

[sinker]

I agree with Wyvern and Devonapple, but remember compels should be a source of drama. Don't compel him every time something with claws or a knife shows up, that's just irritating. If at an intense moment he struggles with some monstrous thing you want to slide a Fate point at him and smile as you say "Kevlar isn't really made for claws. You hear a ripping sound as a sharp pain hits your back." then that's great.

[TheBiggs]

Honestly, if I got a fate every single time I was attacked just to nullify my armor, I'd be more than happy to take it.

[wyvern]

Well, it'd probably be once per scene at most.  Compels are always worse than what you could gain from an equivalent invoke.  (For example, you can invoke to gain a +2 to a roll.  A compel would make you not only fail the roll, but frequently suffer some additional penalty - such as setting the building you're in on fire with a missed evocation.)

[sinker]

And as I said compels are there to create drama. If you do it all the time it's going to turn into "What are the thugs armed with? Ok, give me my fate point."

[Todjaeger]

A few facts about armor, and how I plan to handle it/them in my own game.

Okay, most body armor in the US is tested and rated by the National Institute of Justice, which is the R&D as well as Test & Eval arm of the Department of Justice.  Below are some links to NIJ pages with more specific information about various types of armor.  Higher levels of ballistic protection (Type V and higher) are apparently available but it military equipment with the levels of protection being classified.

Body armor ballistic resistance: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf
Body armor stab resistance: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/183652.pdf
Body armor selection guide: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf

Now, armor that is good at providing protection vs. pistol or even rifles rounds is frequently going to provide little or no protection against edged/pointed weapons like arrows, spears or blades.  The will also provide a minimal amount of protection vs. blunt force trauma.  All of the has to do with physics, the construction of the armor, and how the armor deals with the particular type of threat it was designed to protect against.

For instance, armor with steel plates to protect against stabs can provide some protection against gunfire.  However, they can also cause greater injury to the wearer if they do get shot as well, since fragments from the steel plate (spall) can break off and become projectiles which strike the wearer.

Now for the way I plan on handling armor in my campaign...
I'm going to have the player tell me what armor they wish to purchase, or wish to make or have made for them.  If they choose to purchase a standard bulletproof vest it would provide Armor: 2 vs. gunfire, but basically no protection against other types of attacks.  I say this because a commercially available Type IIIA is rated to protect against .357SIG and .44 Magnum handgun rounds and costs under $500 new, which works out to a Resources roll of Average (+1) or higher to purchase it.  Not exactly something difficult for a player to accomplish, or if they have Good (+3) or better Resources, or just Average (+1) and the stunt Lush Lifestyle, they don't even need to roll to make the Resources check.  In short, if players plan ahead and want it, body armor is easy for them to get, therefore I wouldn't automatically make it all inclusive in terms of protection, since it really isn't.

If they wanted full on military grade body armor which is ~$3,000 or so, I'd then either require additional successes due to the restricted nature of the armor (LE/Mil-only) and/or successes in Contacts rolls to indicate success in finding someone willing to sell a restricted item, but the armor they end up with would provide a higher level of protection, and/or a more comprehensive protection.

-Cheers

[ARedthorn]

Todjaeger went more into depth already... but I'd like to point something out. "Kevlar Plated..." Is this exactly what he meant to purchase, and exactly what you gave him?

Cause... Kevlar is a fabric- highly structural, flexible, resistant, but fabric nonetheless. When people talk about kevlar vests, this is all they really are, plus some thin padding between layers of the kevlar... at least, most of the time. Good for (most) handguns, but there are ways to cut right through it. High power handguns, or anything heavier at all... plus there are a number of old espionage tricks like spraying your bullets with teflon (yes, the stuff they put on frying pans).

The plates you hear about are ballistic plates, made out of ceramic, and they're designed to absorb all the energy of nearly any round you put into them. They're heavy, expensive, and they break when struck or even mishandled- you don't exactly have to be gentle with them, but you're not supposed to drop them, or let the plates hit eachother... which is a problem in something like a trenchcoat.

That said- TJ's specialized armor system is a good idea... it provides exactly the kind of loopholes you're looking for, and while there aren't any rules specifically along those lines, Catches are a kind of precedent.

In my games, I treat armor almost identically to toughness type powers. Most have limits of some kind, and they have a sort of stress track- equal to their rating- but completely separate from the character's normal stress. When the armor's stress fills out, it's broken. It's one more thing to have to keep an eye on, but my group has more than it's share of simulationists who love them some realism.
Something a little simpler- any time the armor takes a hit from something it wasn't designed to handle, reduce it's rating by 1.

It's good for representing armor limits and breakage- something important the game, in this case, completely overlooked.

[Todjaeger]

It's good for representing armor limits and breakage- something important the game, in this case, completely overlooked.

Actually there were three things I neglected to mention.

Give the Weapon chart is somewhat abstract, I plan on having the Armor rank be similar, and also roughly correspond to the Weapon chart.

i.e. a Type IIIA or Type II vest is essentially good against handguns, so that would be Armor: 2

A Type IIA is good against smaller handguns up to a 9mm, so that would be Armor: 1

Secondly (and also influencing the Armor ranking I'll use) is that these vests only really provide torso and perhaps upper thigh protection, so if someone makes an Aimed Shot, then they could be targeting an unprotected area.  Also I "rounded down" the level of armor protection due to the fact that such vests don't provide total body protection.

There are full body (and helmet) suits of tactical armor, but those are very high end armors which are typically restricted to some Army or Marine units, Special Forces, and perhaps some of the larger SWAT/ERU teams in some of the larger and higher risk law enforcement departments.

The third thing is that after a suit of armor has been used in a fight where the character has actually been hit (whether Stress was inflicted or not), I'm going to treat the armor as damaged and reduced the effectiveness by 1 step, i.e. a Type IIIA Armor: 2 vest becomes a Armor: 1 until the body armor is either repaired (Craftsmanship) or replaced (Resources), with Contacts potentially assisting either efforts.

-Cheers

[CottbusFiles]

On the other hand, I don't want the players who spent refresh for toughness powers to get armor to feel like they spent that refresh for something they could have gotten without it.

One thing to keep in mind is that toughness powers are allways on, armor has to be worn. Getting attacked in your bathtub, good luck without powers...
Walking arround all the time in military grade equipment also invokes suspicion so he should walk arroudn in it all the time. Murphy or Sanya only wear armor when they know the wade into battle not when walking to get a newspaper.