A few questions on thresholds and Incite Emotion for blocks

[Colette]

Good day to everyone. This is my first post on these forums, and I hope to make more as I have more questions to ask.

Today, I had participated in my first ever session of the Dresden Files RPG, and also my first ever session under a FATE-based system too. I had never read any of the Dresden Files books, so I was playing from the disadvantageous position of relying solely on Your Story and Our World for setting information. My GM was totally new to both FATE-based systems and the Dresden Files too, so we were both operating from that position.

I had encountered some rules confusion during my first session that the other players were kind enough to help me understand, but afterwards, I realize that a few things were still left unclarified. So, I would like to pose the following sets of questions.

1. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "some beings—especially those of pure spirit—cannot cross a threshold, since they're usually using their magical power to hold their material world body together." What beings would these be, specifically? What is the general guideline for whether or not a particular type of creature can physically cross a threshold or not?

2. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "a significant source of running water ... 'shorts out' magical energies that try to cross over or through it." How exactly does this work as a threshold? What happens if a supernatural creature crosses a bridge over a wide river, for example?

3. Page 231 of Your Story explains that places of worshipare considered thresholds. Some time before my first session started, I had asked my GM if weekly Mass was an invitation into the church's threshold; the GM said that yes, it was. During my first session, my character was brought to a synagogue by the party and an allied rabbi. Inside, another player initiated social conflict with me, and I had to accept. I used one of my powers in defense, but then the player interrupted and said that I was in a threshold. I had asked the GM if I was invited into the threshold of the synagogue; the GM said I was.

Then, the player brought up that there was no such thing as an invitation to holy ground, and that it would take a personal invitation from the White God to lift the threshold. Therefore, I should take a significant penalty to the usage of my supernatural powers. The GM agreed.

I can understand the logic behind this, but is this the case within the rules? Page 187 of Your Story says, in reference to the Bless This House power, which bolsters the rating of a threshold, that "Multiple individuals who have this power can stack the effects, making a den of the faithful potentially very safe from supernatural incursion—unless someone’s so foolish as to invite a powerful supernatural creature in." From this, I understood that an supernatural creature being invited to a place of worship is free of any penalties from the threshold. Is this indeed not the case?

4. Pages 230-231 of Your Story explain that a threshold inhibits supernatural powers. How does a threshold affect the defensive aspects of supernatural powers? For example, Supernatural Speed would grant a creature a +2 bonus to an Athletics roll made to dodge. How would that be affected within a threshold? What about the extra physical stress boxes from a power like Supernatural Toughness?

5. During my first session, I had wanted to use my Incite Emotion (Sorrow) power to block all of the actions of a Summer Court fae that we were engaged in physical conflict with, by overwhelming it with hopelessness. Two of the other players contested it and said that I was wrong and could not do so. I pointed to page 173 of Your Story, which says, in reference to Incite Emotion, "You may be able to prevent the victim from taking other actions as well if you do this as a block (page 210) instead of as a maneuver." I also pointed to page 210 of Our World, which states, "Generally speaking, if the block can affect more than one person, it can only prevent one type of action. If the block only affects one person, it can prevent several types of action—up to all of them—as context permits. You can’t use a block to prevent someone from making a defense roll."

The other two players still said I was wrong and could not use Incite Emotion to block that way. So, I just used my Incite Emotion power for a maneuver instead. What was I about to do wrong by using Incite Emotion to block all actions but defense rolls?

Thank you in advance for any rules clarifications.

[TheBiggs]

1. Ask you GM ? Otherwise, a good guideline would be "stuff that's part human can enter, the rest stays at the door".
2. They can cross the bridge with no problem. Actually jumping over a river might be a problem for a few of them, but for most of them it's no issue, only a temporary weakening.
3. Well, thresholds are something that form around a home where people live. That's why those people can lower that protection and invite you in. Holy ground is something that just is, formed by the faith of thousands of people. I don't think inviting you in would work.
4. Use the grapple rules.

[UmbraLux]

So, I would like to pose the following sets of questions.

One comment on FATE and DFRPG before getting into your specific questions - it's a narrative game and many mechanics are left open to some interpretation by individual groups. 

1. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "some beings—especially those of pure spirit—cannot cross a threshold, since they're usually using their magical power to hold their material world body together." What beings would these be, specifically? What is the general guideline for whether or not a particular type of creature can physically cross a threshold or not?

This is left open to GM & group interpretation.  My interpretation includes ghosts, demons without a summoned or possessed body, elemental spirits such as Bob (except when possessing a body), and pretty much anything with the Spirit Form power which also lacks some type of Human Form.

2. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "a significant source of running water ... 'shorts out' magical energies that try to cross over or through it." How exactly does this work as a threshold? What happens if a supernatural creature crosses a bridge over a wide river, for example?

Thresholds work as suppressing blocks against the supernatural (also see Q4).  Essentially the GM is going to assign a number to the body of water based on its size and how quickly it flows.  That becomes the 'threshold value' for said body of water.  Ovbiously this is also very group and GM dependent.   

3. Page 231 of Your Story explains that places of worshipare considered thresholds. Some time before my first session started, I had asked my GM if weekly Mass was an invitation into the church's threshold; the GM said that yes, it was. During my first session, my character was brought to a synagogue by the party and an allied rabbi. Inside, another player initiated social conflict with me, and I had to accept. I used one of my powers in defense, but then the player interrupted and said that I was in a threshold. I had asked the GM if I was invited into the threshold of the synagogue; the GM said I was.

Then, the player brought up that there was no such thing as an invitation to holy ground, and that it would take a personal invitation from the White God to lift the threshold. Therefore, I should take a significant penalty to the usage of my supernatural powers. The GM agreed.

I can understand the logic behind this, but is this the case within the rules? Page 187 of Your Story says, in reference to the Bless This House power, which bolsters the rating of a threshold, that "Multiple individuals who have this power can stack the effects, making a den of the faithful potentially very safe from supernatural incursion—unless someone’s so foolish as to invite a powerful supernatural creature in." From this, I understood that an supernatural creature being invited to a place of worship is free of any penalties from the threshold. Is this indeed not the case?

Generally, invitations which bypass thresholds need to be explicit.  So a greeter standing at the church door shaking your hand and saying "Welcome" negates the threshold but just walking in an open door doesn't.  One more item to discuss in detail with your group though.

4. Pages 230-231 of Your Story explain that a threshold inhibits supernatural powers. How does a threshold affect the defensive aspects of supernatural powers? For example, Supernatural Speed would grant a creature a +2 bonus to an Athletics roll made to dodge. How would that be affected within a threshold? What about the extra physical stress boxes from a power like Supernatural Toughness?

In general, thresholds work as both a zone barrier against crossing and a persistent suppression (block) against uninvited supernatural entities.  So your supernatural Athletics roll would be reduced by the threshold value (you may be better off limiting yourself to human capability) and some or all of your Toughness would be suppressed (similar to a shapechanger - consequences taken don't go away, they're still there once you leave / change form).

5. During my first session, I had wanted to use my Incite Emotion (Sorrow) power to block all of the actions of a Summer Court fae that we were engaged in physical conflict with, by overwhelming it with hopelessness. Two of the other players contested it and said that I was wrong and could not do so. I pointed to page 173 of Your Story, which says, in reference to Incite Emotion, "You may be able to prevent the victim from taking other actions as well if you do this as a block (page 210) instead of as a maneuver." I also pointed to page 210 of Our World, which states, "Generally speaking, if the block can affect more than one person, it can only prevent one type of action. If the block only affects one person, it can prevent several types of action—up to all of them—as context permits. You can’t use a block to prevent someone from making a defense roll."

The other two players still said I was wrong and could not use Incite Emotion to block that way. So, I just used my Incite Emotion power for a maneuver instead. What was I about to do wrong by using Incite Emotion to block all actions but defense rolls?

To the best of my knowledge, RAW supports your single target block.  Did the other players have some reason to believe otherwise? 

One thing worth noting, I tend to be very permissive on what can break a 'universal' block.  In general, any action blocked can be used to break the block.  (Not all groups agree.)  This makes universal blocks much less attractive since the victim will choose his highest relevant skill to contest the block.  In the case of a mental based block probably his highest mental skill.  One more case of 'very open to individual interpretation'.   

[Richard_Chilton]

Just a general note - there is no place to get "official answers" on this system.  We can tell you what we think it means but that's it.  The closest we usually get to "official answers" are things like the "official suggestions" in the sticky.

1.What beings would these be, specifically? What is the general guideline for whether or not a particular type of creature can physically cross a threshold or not?

Thresholds have led to much discussion on this board.  The consensus is that creatures of pure spirit (ghosts, spirits) can not cross one.  Those who carry power (Wizards, etc) have their power reduced when crossing one.  Those that are all ready under the effects  of a spell (shapechanged werewolves) don't have the spell effected.

2. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "a significant source of running water ... 'shorts out' magical energies that try to cross over or through it." How exactly does this work as a threshold? What happens if a supernatural creature crosses a bridge over a wide river, for example?

Then he isn't crossing running water but crossing a bridge.  Basically, running water acts like a threshold.  A sprinkler system can down grade the spells cast by most mortal wizards.  There are some guidelines about how this works in play but it's up to the table to decide.

Personally, I see rain/sprinklers removing a step from most active spells but not undoing the effects of spells.  EG: A wizard uses a curse to assign a consequence - the magic has already been cast and the consequence it the lingering effect.  Someone conjures a sword - the magic is keeping the ectoplasm in the shape of the sword and that magic can be washed away.

3. Page 231 of Your Story explains that places of worshipare considered thresholds. Some time before my first session started, I had asked my GM if weekly Mass was an invitation into the church's threshold; the GM said that yes, it was.

That's a question for the table to work out.  Bless this House seems to add to a normal existing threshold rather than the special case for some houses of worship -  a bit like "wards for the holy".

But keep in mind that not every "place of worship" automatically gets a threshold.  In my view, the threshold effect is the result of a strong community coming together to worship - all of their faith pooling.  For example, I strongly doubt that the average airport chapel has one.

4. Pages 230-231 of Your Story explain that a threshold inhibits supernatural powers. How does a threshold affect the defensive aspects of supernatural powers?

If a threshold means that you don't have access to a power then you don't have access to that power - offence or defence doesn't matter.

5. During my first session, I had wanted to use my Incite Emotion (Sorrow) power to block all of the actions of a Summer Court fae that we were engaged in physical conflict with, by overwhelming it with hopelessness.

You have your official answer for this one - the table said 'no'.  However, if the Rules As Written say that you can do it then usually you can do it.  Perhaps this is one of those times when you should have a rules discussion before or after game? Note the timing on that - talking about rules during the game isn't fun and it slows down things.  When you're not playing, when character life and death doesn't depend on whether that's a comma or a semicolon, that's the time to work out the rules.

Richard

[sinker]

1. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "some beings—especially those of pure spirit—cannot cross a threshold, since they're usually using their magical power to hold their material world body together." What beings would these be, specifically? What is the general guideline for whether or not a particular type of creature can physically cross a threshold or not?

The way I usually determine this is by asking: Does it have meat? Does it have a physical form it inhabits or is it only a creature of spirit?

2. Page 230 of Your Story mentions that "a significant source of running water ... 'shorts out' magical energies that try to cross over or through it." How exactly does this work as a threshold? What happens if a supernatural creature crosses a bridge over a wide river, for example?

Any type of threshold constantly works in all of the ways described on YS230-231. So in this case it's going to act as a zone border, and a block, as well as downgrading any supernatural abilities. As has already been pointed out though the creature is crossing a bridge. Running water is much less effective if you're moving over it, not through it.

3. Page 231 of Your Story explains that places of worshipare considered thresholds. Some time before my first session started, I had asked my GM if weekly Mass was an invitation into the church's threshold; the GM said that yes, it was....

To be honest there is no real RAW answer to this question. It's up to the table at large to decide. My personal thought is that the white god is all about free will. If a member of his church decides to invite something questionable onto holy ground then he will respect that decision and stay out of the consequences. Additionally you have Richard's take on it (which I see as also being valid) and again if a member of the community brings you in then you would be essentially welcomed into the community. In this case you were personally invited in by the Rabbi. I can't see any clearer invitation.

4. Pages 230-231 of Your Story explain that a threshold inhibits supernatural powers. How does a threshold affect the defensive aspects of supernatural powers? For example, Supernatural Speed would grant a creature a +2 bonus to an Athletics roll made to dodge. How would that be affected within a threshold? What about the extra physical stress boxes from a power like Supernatural Toughness?

It acts as a negative to those powers as well, so your +2 bonus to athletics would be reduced by the threshold's value (I would not reduce it beyond +0, but I suppose that's up to the table), and your stress boxes would be unavailable, starting with the highest and moving down (for example the first point of a threshold makes someone's eighth stress box unavailable, the second point effects the seventh, etc).

5. During my first session, I had wanted to use my Incite Emotion (Sorrow) power to block all of the actions of a Summer Court fae that we were engaged in physical conflict with, by overwhelming it with hopelessness. Two of the other players contested it and said that I was wrong and could not do so....

The rules say that you can. Were I you I would be more than a little irritated in the outcome of that situation. Richard is totally right about much of Fate being up to the table to decide what they want, but when someone points this out I usually remind them that I am (or the person in question is) part of the table too, and it really sucks when everyone else bullies you into a complete raw deal for you. Don't be afraid to stick to your guns a bit.

The other thing I would consider though is the context. Was the Fey the only enemy in the conflict? Would that effectively have removed it from the conflict? That's no fun.

[devonapple]

5. During my first session, I had wanted to use my Incite Emotion (Sorrow) power to block all of the actions of a Summer Court fae that we were engaged in physical conflict with, by overwhelming it with hopelessness. Two of the other players contested it and said that I was wrong and could not do so. I pointed to page 173 of Your Story, which says, in reference to Incite Emotion, "You may be able to prevent the victim from taking other actions as well if you do this as a block (page 210) instead of as a maneuver." I also pointed to page 210 of Our World, which states, "Generally speaking, if the block can affect more than one person, it can only prevent one type of action. If the block only affects one person, it can prevent several types of action—up to all of them—as context permits. You can’t use a block to prevent someone from making a defense roll."

The other two players still said I was wrong and could not use Incite Emotion to block that way. So, I just used my Incite Emotion power for a maneuver instead. What was I about to do wrong by using Incite Emotion to block all actions but defense rolls?

This should have been possible by the RAW. Going with the table's vibe only goes so far, though, so I think there may have been extenuating circumstances here:

1) the players and GM were simply wrong and opted to not back down despite the overwhelming rules support you pointed out

2) or (and this may be more likely) the players and GM may have felt that such powers were not valid options against a Fey creature - there has certainly been a little teensy bit of debate about whether Fey (creatures which are often described as being wholly in their natures) can be manipulated emotionally like that

[ARedthorn]

though, in the latter case, Devon, that should probably be represented by the Fae having a better chance of overcoming the block- not outright immunity to it- since clearly some fae are clearly very emotional... just because they're set in their ways doesn't mean their ways can't be wildly manic-depressive. If anything- that seems to go double for Summer what it does for Winter.

Anyways- I'd absolutely let you do it, but I'd need some strictures and outlets... ie, sorrow can prevent a number of actions, but not absolutely all- running away and crying, begging for one's life (pity as a social attack?), or going suicide-bomber should all still be ok, and completely uncontested by the block (this is where the "as context permits" clause comes into play).
Exactly how high a block would you have been able to toss up that way, anyway? There's every chance it might not have done the job.
Believe it or not, that matters, because if the block was too weak, it's wasted. If too strong, it's game-breaking and I can understand where they were coming from (rules or not). Somewhere in the middle, where it will work all the time in some circumstances or some of the time in all circumstances... that I'm ok with all around.

Sounds like you were trying to be creative and play to your character's strengths- something any GM should reward, not punish. If it were game-breaking, I'd at least have tried to barter with you- let you have a FP not to take that action (which could fit nicely into the fae issue- they spend a FP to slip out of it, which goes to you- so it would even be legit).

[Silverblaze]

Mmmm thread necro

How does one model the suppressing factor of a threshold in play?

Subtract a number of shifts from any action involving supernatural powers, from incite emotion to super strength to magic?

It hasn't come up in our game yet, but if it does...I want a few good ideas on how to model this.

Examples: of how I interpret/understand this.

Threshold = 4

Spell cast within is cast as a Fuego! 4 shift flame spell.  The spell loses 4 shifts of efficiency.  Does this mean it has no weapon value or the spell is entirely absorbed by the threshold regardless of accuracy/control rolls?

If an ogre forces past a threshold and punches someone does it deal less damage due to the threshold makingh im leave his powers at the door?

I'd like a specific and explicit understanding of this threshold as a supressor thing.

I honestly feel a threshold as a block is a little weak in most circumstances since as long as the roll exceeds the block the power is used at full efficiency...seems wrong to me.

[sinker]

Mmmm thread necro

The Wardens have been dispatched to your home.

Spell cast within is cast as a Fuego! 4 shift flame spell.  The spell loses 4 shifts of efficiency.  Does this mean it has no weapon value or the spell is entirely absorbed by the threshold regardless of accuracy/control rolls?

With a spell effect I think I would actually cancel the spell if it was reduced below it's shift value. You can't hurt someone with the accuracy of your fireball if the fire disperses before it gets to them.

If an ogre forces past a threshold and punches someone does it deal less damage due to the threshold makingh im leave his powers at the door?

My initial thought was that the ogre is never going to be worse than he would be without the power, but then I went and reread the section. It totally says that once a damage bonus is reduced beyond zero it acts as a penalty to the roll, so I would definitely drop his total shifts by the threshold.

[Silverblaze]

The Wardens have been dispatched to your home.

With a spell effect I think I would actually cancel the spell if it was reduced below it's shift value. You can't hurt someone with the accuracy of your fireball if the fire disperses before it gets to them.

My initial thought was that the ogre is never going to be worse than he would be without the power, but then I went and reread the section. It totally says that once a damage bonus is reduced beyond zero it acts as a penalty to the roll, so I would definitely drop his total shifts by the threshold.

I thought so.

I hope to get more insight into this issue.  Not that I don't like hearing people agree with me.  ALso not hat your opinion isn't enough, but I'd really like to be sure about this whole thing.

[Tedronai]

I fail to see how one would not apply this:

My initial thought was that the ogre is never going to be worse than he would be without the power, but then I went and reread the section. It totally says that once a damage bonus is reduced beyond zero it acts as a penalty to the roll, so I would definitely drop his total shifts by the threshold.

equally to this:

With a spell effect I think I would actually cancel the spell if it was reduced below it's shift value. You can't hurt someone with the accuracy of your fireball if the fire disperses before it gets to them.

[Mr. Death]

An ogre, and other Fae, are still physical in some sense. If you remove supernatural power from the equation, its fists are still there, even if they're not hitting as hard as they normally do.

A wizard's fire spell, however, is not physical. If you remove magic from the equation, it's not there at all.

[sinker]

Mostly because I see them as being dissimilar instances. If your spell has zero shifts of effect then it doesn't exist. You can't cast a zero shift spell.

Additionally as I mentioned before, if it were up to me I would reduce the use of powers to zero (as if you didn't have the power). I see the spell reduction as being equivalent. However the RAW is clear that the threshold further reduces the power, so I go with the RAW.

[Becq]

I think that this bit:

In the case of attack abilities, this most often manifests as a reduction of the damage bonus provided, acting as a penalty to the actual attack roll only after the damage bonus has been reduced to zero.

is referring specifically to magical attack abilities, such as (for example) Breath Weapon.  When you try to use such a power to attack with in a way that a mundane human couldn't, then you first reduce the damage bonus to zero, then start penalizing the attack roll.  My take is that the idea here is that even at weapon:0, Breath Weapon gives you a capability that a mundane human doesn't have, so further reductions occur until the power is worthless.  Of course, the character with the now useless Breath Weapon could still punch someone normally.  As a second example, consider Claws.  Once the damage bonus is dropped to zero, then you might as well be attacking using old-fashioned fists rather than the power.  I guess it sums up as "if you attack without using a magical ability, the threshold doesn't apply".  So in the case of Inhuman Strength, you don't get Inhumanly Weak, you just get Humanly normal.

There's an exception to this, of course.  If your body is supernatural (construct, for example), then even your punch is basically supernatural, so you'd take the full penalty.

At least, that's my take.

[Silverblaze]

So do thresholds effect toughness powers also or speed?

I have an understanding that it can only effect things that have shifts of power/success.

So size and toughness, probably no?  Cloak of shadows - yes?

Shapeshifting?  Would shifters have hte power taken away so they look like their base form?