Author Topic: Clarification on a Thaumaturgic attack, please?  (Read 2108 times)

Offline Ghsdkgb

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Clarification on a Thaumaturgic attack, please?
« on: November 10, 2011, 04:33:07 PM »
Okay, let's say I'm trying a sleep spell. I have +2 Lore, I'm able to put a scene together to give me an Aspect to tag, and I take a Moderate Consequence of "Exhausted", giving me a total of +8 shifts of power to put into the spell. Correct so far?

I have Conviction of +3 and Discipline of +4. This means I can put no more than 3 shifts of power into casting per turn, right? And I roll each turn at a +4? So I'd have to roll at a +3 difficulty the first two times, and then the third time at a +2, to get the spell to go off properly in the minimal time. Correct so far?

Okay, so let's say I roll a total +2 the first time. I can take Fallout, which means that the whole spell fails, or take 1 Mental stress as Backlash to keep going. Yes? Okay, let's say I do that.

The second time, I get a +5. Whee! So what happens to the extra 2 shifts in this case? Are they just gone? Or can I put them towards future power of the spell?

The third time, I only need a +2, but I end up with a +1 (stupid dice). This means I have to take the extra 1 Mental stress or lose the spell. Now, is it possible I could roll over my extra +2 from the second roll to prevent the backlash? Or do I have to reach each roll independently? Is there any way to get extra shifts of power at this point, like I can with Evocation? Or am I pretty much stuck with 8 or nothing?

Okay, let's say I get exactly 8 and the spell hits. They then roll a Discipline defense at a +8 difficulty to resist the spell, right? And then, let's say they get +5. They then take 3 mental stress for the difference and then 8 more from the original power I put into the spell?

Want to make sure I have all this right. Thanks!
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Offline sinker

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Re: Clarification on a Thaumaturgic attack, please?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2011, 05:18:50 PM »
Okay, let's say I'm trying a sleep spell. I have +2 Lore, I'm able to put a scene together to give me an Aspect to tag, and I take a Moderate Consequence of "Exhausted", giving me a total of +8 shifts of power to put into the spell. Correct so far?

I have Conviction of +3 and Discipline of +4. This means I can put no more than 3 shifts of power into casting per turn, right? And I roll each turn at a +4? So I'd have to roll at a +3 difficulty the first two times, and then the third time at a +2, to get the spell to go off properly in the minimal time. Correct so far?

Okay, so let's say I roll a total +2 the first time. I can take Fallout, which means that the whole spell fails, or take 1 Mental stress as Backlash to keep going. Yes? Okay, let's say I do that.

You're pretty much good through here. Backlash can be mental or physical though.

The second time, I get a +5. Whee! So what happens to the extra 2 shifts in this case? Are they just gone? Or can I put them towards future power of the spell?

They mean that you have succeeded this turn. Nothing else. It kinda sucks, but that's how it works.

The third time, I only need a +2, but I end up with a +1 (stupid dice). This means I have to take the extra 1 Mental stress or lose the spell. Now, is it possible I could roll over my extra +2 from the second roll to prevent the backlash? Or do I have to reach each roll independently? Is there any way to get extra shifts of power at this point, like I can with Evocation? Or am I pretty much stuck with 8 or nothing?

See both points above. In thaumaturgy it's all or nothing and during the ritual there is no way to increase the shifts.

Okay, let's say I get exactly 8 and the spell hits. They then roll a Discipline defense at a +8 difficulty to resist the spell, right? And then, let's say they get +5. They then take 3 mental stress for the difference and then 8 more from the original power I put into the spell?

That's the way evocation works, but not thaumaturgy. In thaumaturgy the power of the spell is the only thing that matters. So using this example you put eight power in, then they defend for five then take three stress, The end.

This is actually a balancing factor though. Thaumaturgy is completely open ended in terms of power. And complexity is the only limit (since in theory you can just draw up a single shift of power each time and never fail). Look at how Victor Sells' exploding heart spell works. It's quite a lot of effort. Now consider what would happen if he only needed half that. He wouldn't need to take consequences, wouldn't need to wait for a storm, might even not need the Becketts. Way easier.

Offline Ghsdkgb

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Re: Clarification on a Thaumaturgic attack, please?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2011, 05:24:06 PM »
That's the way evocation works, but not thaumaturgy. In thaumaturgy the power of the spell is the only thing that matters. So using this example you put eight power in, then they defend for five then take three stress, The end.

Damn. Alrighty, then. Thanks!
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Clarification on a Thaumaturgic attack, please?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2011, 05:29:33 PM »
Warning: I seem to differ from sinker on a few points:

I have Conviction of +3 and Discipline of +4. This means I can put no more than 3 shifts of power into casting per turn, right?

You could opt to put in more power on a given exchange, but power over your Conviction costs Mental Stress. So if you opted to front-load your ritual (a good idea for some rituals), you could op to put, say, 5 shifts into your first exchange: it would cost you 2 Mental Stress, and you would need to roll 5 shifts on Discipline to control it, but if you succeed, then you can squeeze the remaining shifts out 1 at a time. Some thaumaturgists will opt to build up as much as they safely can in the first exchange so that they only have to trickle in the remaining shifts, thus making it less likely they will lose control and suddenly have to deal with almost the entire ritual's collection of power as backlash. Because if you fail a roll, you take ALL of the bucket as stress.

And I roll each turn at a +4? So I'd have to roll at a +3 difficulty the first two times, and then the third time at a +2, to get the spell to go off properly in the minimal time. Correct so far?

Yes, ideally.

Okay, so let's say I roll a total +2 the first time. I can take Fallout, which means that the whole spell fails, or take 1 Mental stress as Backlash to keep going. Yes? Okay, let's say I do that.

No, you have to absorb the current bucket of shifts as stress if you want to keep the spell going, which is why it is good to frontload the ritual with shifts and go all-out to control it, so that you're less likely to lose the bucket on a later roll. You could theoretically take a 2-point Consequence and add that to the control roll, and then you wouldn't have technically lost control. You could also spend a Fate Point to tag an Aspect to add to the control roll.

But if your control roll fails for whatever reason, ALL of the accumulated shifts (in the case of round 1, that would be 3 shifts) go back to you as either Fallout or Backlash: not just the single shift you missed it by. It sucks, certainly, though 3 shifts is not the worst I've seen.

Also, Backlash can be taken as either Physical Stress or Mental Stress (but not split between them).

The second time, I get a +5. Whee! So what happens to the extra 2 shifts in this case? Are they just gone? Or can I put them towards future power of the spell?

Nothing. They go away. Overkill. Your GM may opt to allow you to generate "spin" (see Your Story for those optional rules) but those are mostly used in attack/defense situations.

The third time, I only need a +2, but I end up with a +1 (stupid dice). This means I have to take the extra 1 Mental stress or lose the spell. Now, is it possible I could roll over my extra +2 from the second roll to prevent the backlash? Or do I have to reach each roll independently? Is there any way to get extra shifts of power at this point, like I can with Evocation? Or am I pretty much stuck with 8 or nothing?

Each roll is independent. You could theoretically use Fate Points to tag an Aspect to help with a given roll. Your GM may also allow you to have placed one or more navel-gazing maneuvers like "Supreme Concentration" before the ritual, and instead of using them to make the initial Complexity, saving them up to free-tag in case rolls go wrong. I have also allowed people to take Consequences to boost rolls. I've also allowed Backlash Stress to be split between multiple casters.

But yes, you are stuck with 8 or nothing.

Okay, let's say I get exactly 8 and the spell hits. They then roll a Discipline defense at a +8 difficulty to resist the spell, right? And then, let's say they get +5. They then take 3 mental stress for the difference and then 8 more from the original power I put into the spell?


Yes, that sounds correct. Spells, and especially rituals, can be devastating if they are allowed to be completed. Nope, on further consideration, sinker is right on this one. My apologies.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 06:00:48 PM by devonapple »
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Offline sinker

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Re: Clarification on a Thaumaturgic attack, please?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2011, 05:51:05 PM »
Yeah Devonapple is right about a few things. It's been a while, I'm getting rusty. Fallout and backlash work the way he says. You have to deal with all of the shifts.

Something I just discovered while looking at the book though is that for your excess shifts in round two, you could invoke/tag an aspect to increase the amount of power channeled in that round by two shifts (well more if you wanted, but that would be a bad idea).

Second point is that the rules say "invoke an aspect" to boost either control or power. Since a tag is a free invoke you wouldn't need to spend a fate point, unless you needed to spend a fate point (like you didn't have any tags).

I'm going to stick by my guns on the whole target defends against complexity only though. Otherwise Victor was either waaay over-shooting his spell (by hitting pure mortals with a 72 shift attack) or like I said earlier wouldn't need half those shifts.

Also this:
Quote from: Your Story: 265
If a consequence or
permanent change is appropriate,
the complexity of
the spell must account
for the target’s ability to
resist, his stress track, and
the level of desired consequence.
This can lead to
very large numbers if you
want a sure thing. Inflicting
a mild disease on a fairly
hale target—say, Good (+3)
Endurance—would be a
13 complexity spell: 7 to
match the best Endurance
roll possible, 4 for the target’s
stress track, and 2 more for
the mild consequence.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 06:00:08 PM by sinker »

Offline devonapple

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Re: Clarification on a Thaumaturgic attack, please?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 05:59:28 PM »
I'm going to stick by my guns on the whole target defends against complexity only though. Otherwise Victor was either waaay over-shooting his spell (by hitting pure mortals with a 72 shift attack) or like I said earlier wouldn't need half those shifts.

Actually, I rescind my statement on this topic in favor of sinker's.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Clarification on a Thaumaturgic attack, please?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 11:21:07 PM »
Don't forget that adding assistants can help speed up the casting and that the caster can shuffle the backlash on those others.

Richard