Of Gods and Demons: A question about high-refresh games

[UmbraLux]

Can you really imagine Mab being tripped?

Yep.  Can also imagine her being extremely pissed about it. 

[Tedronai]

Barring Cold Iron and the Trappings Of Summer, yeah I'd imagine that's the case. Can you really imagine Mab being tripped?

Yep.  It's hilarious.  Then the tripper dies.  Hilariously.

[Sanctaphrax]

If a mortal can send you sprawling to the ground, you aren't much of a god. If silly string in your eyes can bother you, you aren't much of a god. Trying to kick Mab in the ankle will make your foot freeze and shatter before you can even touch her.

A god is so much stronger than a mortal that tactics and luck are not relevant: the mortal just loses if they fight. The mortal cannot do anything to affect the god even slightly. My proposed PI upgrade makes that true.

It wouldn't work against thresholds, though. Or against Declarations, or against Assessments, or against Wards, or against a concrete wall. As a general rule, it would only protect against things that are acting on you.

PS: The above only applies to physical and mental stuff. Socially, mortals can put up a fight against the gods.

[Tedronai]

If a mortal can send you sprawling to the ground, you aren't much of a god. If silly string in your eyes can bother you, you aren't much of a god. Trying to kick Mab in the ankle will make your foot freeze and shatter before you can even touch her.

A god is so much stronger than a mortal that tactics and luck are not relevant: the mortal just loses if they fight. The mortal cannot do anything to affect the god even slightly. My proposed PI upgrade makes that true.

It wouldn't work against thresholds, though. Or against Declarations, or against Assessments, or against Wards, or against a concrete wall. As a general rule, it would only protect against things that are acting on you.

PS: The above only applies to physical and mental stuff. Socially, mortals can put up a fight against the gods.

That depends on how are you defining 'mortal'.  The assembled Senior Council are mortals, and yet I suspect that they could, if they put their minds and wills to the task, knock Mab on her ass (and then pay the hilarious price for doing so).
Similarly, I just really don't see how any of that can't be represented by Godly skill distributions rather than some absolute Immunity.
As for your exemptions, well, those would have to be spelled out in the actual power.

[Sanctaphrax]

Obviously all this discussion is a touch pointless while the power remains unwritten.

But I have always received the impression that even The Merlin couldn't scratch Mab without cold iron or some sort of plot-fu.

The reason for using absolute Immunity is that it's supposed to be horribly unfair. You do not get to fight Mab. It's not just that you lose; you don't get to fight in the first place. (Barring plot).

I generally dislike absolutes because the above situation sucks to play. But that's alright here because Mab's entire narrative role is to be an invincible plot device. A fight scene against her is just not a thing that should happen.

[ALurker]

For an explanation by Jim on how powerful Mab is see here, here, and especially here.

[Tedronai]

For an explanation by Jim on how powerful Mab is see here, here, and especially here.

Like I said, if the whole of the White Council could, hypothetically, destroy her, I'm pretty sure the assembled Senior Council could knock her on her ass.  (And then die hilariously.)

[Sanctaphrax]

Only with her Name. i.e. Plot.

[Tedronai]

Only with her Name. i.e. Plot.

To destroy her, yes.

[crusher_bob]

A game system doesn't necessarily need 'bigger number' to represent higher power.  You just have to decide what things are going to fall off the bottom of the power scale.

For example, we could play a Watership Down style game about rabbit, where the differences in size, skill, and speed between rabbits would mean a lot.  But on a human scale, all the characters are pretty much just scenery.

So, one way to play powerful characters is to just let certain things fall off the bottom of the power curve.

Here's a rough example:
High powered game play:
When comparing to human scale opponents:
Assume your base skills start at 5, rather than 0.
You have supernatural 'everything' (strength, speed, toughness, etc)

Now, you have 25 skill points and 6 refresh to differentiate yourself from the other people who play at this power level.
you don't get in a fight with human goons at this level, just like Harry doesn't get into a fight with rabbits.

Your  minimum goon scale is something like an old black court vampire, who would have skills of 1 or 2 on your scale, and no strength, speed, etc powers that matter.

A powered up skin walker (skills ~7-8 on a human scale and mythic everything) becomes a minor named character, who has inhuman everything on your scale and most important skills at 2 or 3.

Applying scaling like this makes the numbers and calculations involved with the game much easier to handle.  It also leave much more room at the top of the game system, for your big antagonists. 

[Sanctaphrax]

But then you have to rewrite everything. Lifting/breaking difficulties, NPC stats, thaumaturgy complexities, Resources costs, etc. And you need to keep a careful eye on stunts and power.

It would be easier and generally better to use the big numbers.  And I can't see much of a downside to it.

[crusher_bob]

Because the system handles a guy with skill 3 and weapon: 2 attacking a guy with skill 2 a whole lot better than it handles a guy with skill 19 and weapon 15 attacking a guy with skill 17.

I think the real trick is to have everyone at the table clearly understand what amount of 'scaling' is involved.

For example, if Harry wakes up one morning, looks out over his ravaged garden, and says, "Those rabbits have eaten my produce for the last time!  I'm going down into the lab to whip up some thaumaturgy to exterminate them!"  Is this something that you really need complex thaumaturgy rules for?  And in the divine scale game, it's the same thing with (families /  tribes / nations) of people who have offended you lately. 

So, here's a slightly more complex writeup:

Demi-god level game
8 refresh, 30 skill points.

1
Your characters operate at the 'minor god' level.  When compared to 'mortal' scale characters, you are assumed to have roughly +5 skill levels, appropriate supernatural (strength, toughness, etc) powers.

Note that any equipment you carry will need to be similarly scaled.  For example, wearing a bullet resistant vest will not provide any additional protection in demi-god scale combat, no more than wearing that awesome costume armor made out of tin foil and cardboard would protect you at the human scale.

In general, all mortal equipment (guns, swords, armor, etc) doesn't provide a bonus in the demi-god scale. 

2
God-like will
You are able to effect reality via the direct application or your will, in ways mortals can't.  You can use discipline or conviction to make maneuvers and declarations.  The power limit of these maneuvers and declarations can be assumed to be roughly power 5-7 evocation or thaumatrugy, on the mortal scale.

Larger and more powerful applications of your will require paying points for sponsored magic, evocation, thaumatrugy, etc

So, some sample goon squads (at demi-god scale)

------------------

Posse of (powerful) black court vampires:

skills most relevant skills at Fair (+2)
Powers:
gaseous form

Stress: OOO

any application of their catch takes them out automatically

-----------------

(Powerful) Wardens of the White council
Powers:
The ability to make a variety of attacks, defenses, and maneuvers based on discipline.  When used to attack, their evocations have a weapon value of 2.

Skills:
+2 Discipline, conviction
+1 weapons, athletics

Stress: OO

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think that the system has any problem handling big numbers, really. The only thing that really changes is that consequences become steadily less valuable, and that characters need steadily higher levels of Toughness to avoid being splattered. The former is easily fixed, and the latter is not a bad thing.

Accuracy 19 weapon 15 against defence 17 armour 13 is actually identical to accuracy 3 weapon 2 against defence 1 armour 0, by the way.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I like the idea of setting a stronger baseline.

Inhuman or Supernatural everything (I'd probably go with inhuman, but it depends on how powerful you want them to be). 

Superb base for skills (so you're top tier basically everything right out of the gate) with a cap at Legendary.  I'd probably give a lot less skill points though.

I like the idea of being able to make maneuvers and declarations via will.  I'd also go with a magic power that gives you two domains (like cold and despair).  Working on fleshing that out.  I'm thinking -6 refresh minimum.

This would be for the lower end of the scale (not actual gods, but becoming gods, like Fey Ladies, Hercules, etc).  Build from there. 

I favor a lower power game though.

[zenten]

The main problem I have with high power games is that manouvers on yourself and allies become too easy.  I've been trying to work on house rules to fix this, but I haven't come up with anything so far.