Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic

[Arcane257]

Did we ever get something like an official ruling on this one?

I can argue myself round and round in circles for both sides on whether or not I think mortals using magic that comes entirely from an external source would warp you like mortal magic does. Don't get me wrong it certainly effects you, but in the ways sponsored magic is described as doing... the question is do you eat lawbreaker stunts as well?

Now I do think its pretty clear not all sponsored magics are equal on this point. I think the ones taken to enhance your own magic don't free you from the laws, but what about when you have no ability of your own? Doesn't that make wielding such magic about the same as using a gun/bomb/poison? Balance wise it seems to work because the player clearly has an additional fear other casters don't: IF I piss my sponsor off I go back to being a chump.

Any thoughts?

Also please remember that if we haven't gotten an official word on it all we have is opinion. I ask that you please try to be respectful of others thoughts on this. In other words as much as the idea of Dresden being a serial killer that murders Cheerleaders amuses me on some odd level, I would rather this not turn into yet another thread on the subject. 

[NicholasQuinn]

I can see merrit in both sides of the coin. But I'd hate to rule that sponsored magic-users are free from the Laws, by default of not having their own power. Sponsored magic already confers many advantages, and whilst it has disadvantages I don't think they should be free of the Soul tarnishing affect. Although they're likely out of the White Council's jurisdiction goes, as far as punishing them goes. Non-mortal (or semi-mortals) are of course, also free from the stunt.

I guess it depends on one fundamental question: can a sponsored magic-user cast a spell they do not believe in;
a) of their own free will?
b) when it is demanded/needed of them, by their sponsor?

The answers to the above, would highly mold my opinion. Unfortunately we have not (to my knowledge) discovered the answers in the books. So I guess it is up to your table to decide.

[zenten]

My opinion is that Sponsored Magic for Summer/Winter Magic does not confer Lawbreaker, unless you also have regular magic.

So the Winter Knight would not get the first Lawbreaker for killing someone with magic, unless that Winter Knight was Harry Dresden.

[sinker]

Yeah, I don't think we ever did get an official answer. You could be the one to get it if you like though. Fred often responds to questions emailed to him.

[wyvern]

I expect the official answer is likely to be "Go with whatever your gaming group thinks is right."

In my game, sponsored magic doesn't incur lawbreaker powers / penalties, nor does it hex things.  (Though the White Council's wardens may not necessarily be quite so discerning.)

In a game I'm playing in, sponsored magic is subject to lawbreaker issues (when wielded by a mortal), and does hex things (when wielded by a mortal).

Both of these work just fine; they're just different games.

[sinker]

I expect the official answer is likely to be "Go with whatever your gaming group thinks is right."

He's usually pretty good about at least expressing how he would (or does) do it. He encourages people not to think about it as an "official answer" but since he has more knowledge about the setting than most of us, I at least consider it good advice.

[tetrasodium]

I'd say that it might be a case by case thing based on the source of the sponsored magic and if the lawbreaking was at the request/desire of the sponsor (I'm assuming first law).
In Changes Lea tells harry something about the complexities f extracting payment due:

(click to show/hide)

Specifically that he helped her extract payment due to her to balance the scales of  her exchange of Michael's sword for the dagger.

I'd probably rule differently on killing a first law violation* to balance the scales of debt between the sponsor & victim, than one committed against a doorguard, even if in the process of balancing scales with a third party employing the mook. I'd definately rule differently if the victim was just some mook/villan unrelated or indebted to the sponsor.

* even moreso if other reasonable avenues had been first attempted unsuccessfully  & I painted them into a corner.

Can you give any details about the hypothetical situation

[Becq]

A strict read of the RAW would imply that Sponsored Magic is still subject to Lawbreakers (the only important factor is that the Law is broken "with the use of magic").  There is, however a sidebar on YS236 that indicates that the Laws apply only to mortal spellcasters, with Sidhe Knights not counting as mortal (though it doesn't make it clear whether this referred to the metaphysical or Warden-based enforcement).  The next sidebar then talks storyline possibilities of the White Council deciding to enforce the Laws against Knights (this would refer to Warden-based enforcement, not necessarily metaphysical).

My own take is that Lawbreaking applies to mortals when using any form of magic.  Necromancers are not exempt, desite their use of a power source, but Sidhe Knights are no longer truly human and therefore *are* exempt.  But this is just opinion.  Tetra also has some good ideas.

[Becq]

Just found this, which isn't a direct answer, but there does seem to be the implication that a sponsor can protect from Lawbreaker stunts...

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24796.msg1233775.html#msg1233775

[NicholasQuinn]

Sidhe Knights are no longer truly human and therefore *are* exempt.  But this is just opinion.

My understanding is that a Sidhe Knight is human; which is in part why they are so useful for the Courts. This theory is backed by the fact a changling had to choose human, to become such a Knight.

[sinker]

That was kind-of the point. The Knights have to be mortal so that they can choose. If they don't have free will then they are exactly like any other fey and there's no point. If they have the free will to choose, then they are capable of doing all of the things that the fey can't.

[Richard_Chilton]

My understanding is that a Sidhe Knight is human; which is in part why they are so useful for the Courts. This theory is backed by the fact a changling had to choose human, to become such a Knight.

The Summer Knight and Winter Knights are humans who hold positions in those courts.  They possess free will and can do things that the Queens cannot do.

Sidhe Knights are Sidhe who are knights.  Think back to the battle scene in Summer Knight when you had those guys in full armour on horseback.  Those guys were knights.

Richard

[sinker]

Are sidhe knights even relevant then? They don't really have sponsored magic do they?

[ways and means]

Are sidhe knights even relevant then? They don't really have sponsored magic do they?

Yes they do Summer or Winter Magic respectively.

[Tedronai]

Yes they do Summer or Winter Magic respectively.

Some of them, anyway.