How to become a Freeholding Lord?

[Richard_Chilton]

As Richard_Chilton noted, though, it's likely your warlock group would not need any real trickery (other than establishing the possibility of applying) to encourage three signatories to back their application: many Signatories would easily benefit from the political fallout of division among the mortal spellcasters.

In the setting as written it's more or less impossible to do - with the proof being that no one has done it.  But if a group wants to play with a splintered White Council then the settings police isn't going to enforce the default setting.

Richard

[UmbraLux]

While I agree with Richard about it being (nearly) impossible in the canon setting, I can think of one possible scenario.  After all, rumors are the WC is already splitting...

(click to show/hide)

For clarity, I'm referring to the "Black Council" wizards.  They could either block the WC from acting against a splinter group or they could be the splinter group.  Though, if they were the splinter group, Accorded status would be most likely after an inconclusive civil war.

[Richard_Chilton]

But until we get more information on that, the default setting is "Mortals with power? That's an internal matter for them to settle among themselves.  The freaks only get one seat at the table - and who cares who sits in it?".

Personally, I think the idea of another group trying to set up is one of those Blackstaff moments.  As the warlocks go crazy with corruption there's someone killing them a dozen at a time - and he doesn't get corrupted.  Which mean the group the Blackstaff supports has a huge ace in the whole.

But maybe there are "alternative" built into the current setting.  Jim has dropped hints about a time travel book where all of those alternate "how Harry might have ended up" from Our World get looked.

Richard

[Tedronai]

the proof being that no one has done it.

And no one's gone to the moon, either.

[Richard_Chilton]

And no one's gone to the moon, either.

I guess I made a mistake - I assumed that people would read the entire thread. To quote:

I see it as a two part process:
1) Be something that isn't all ready a signatory to the Accords, and
2) Get three existing signatories to approve you as a Freehold Lord.

Point one stops most groups.  Some would say that it isn't supported by the books, but if different groups of Warlocks could walk around with impunity from the White Council then I could see there being countless "we are humans with magic" factions.  Who would counter sign for that? Everyone who wants humanity to be easy pickings.  In other words - the Red Court, the White Court, the nickelhead, the Fomor - that's four when you only need three and all of them would love to see wizards fighting other groups of wizards.

Now lets look at the barrier to entry:
Going to the moon requires billions of dollars, years of work, and some of the best minds of their generation working it.

That's a high barrier of entry.


If any group of mortal spellcasters just needs to say "Fuck the Merlin and his laws of magic - we're going to form our own group and the Accords will keep the White Council off our backs" then that's a low barrier of entry - especially with the  Red Court, the White Court, the nickelhead, the Fomor all lining up to be the three co-signers.

In short, there's practically no barrier of entry if Warlocks can join like Marcone did.

On one hand you have entire nation working together, spending billions, and on the other could some pissed off German wizards who think that German should have won the war... Or a handful of spirit talkers who thought that the white man shouldn't have conquered their people... Or some Chinese mystics getting behind the Boxer rebellion

Now if you think there's a real reason in any of the books that would allow a group of warlocks to join the accords then by all means point it out.  Make a point and support with evidence.  That would be better than sarcastically comparing the effort of achieving a moon landing with finding two other warlocks who don't like the white council.

Richard

[Tedronai]

Oh, hey, look, an actual argument that's not based on a single blatant fallacy!

I do quite agree that it is highly unlikely for any rebel group to be able to form a new faction under the Accords, but simply saying 'we haven't seen it in the books, so it isn't possible' is ridiculous trash.

[Richard_Chilton]

I do quite agree that it is highly unlikely for any rebel group to be able to form a new faction under the Accords, but simply saying 'we haven't seen it in the books, so it isn't possible' is ridiculous trash.

No, comparing a someone becoming a Freelord with the moon landing is ridiculous - unless you want to start talking about Moon Base Marcone.

The DV is defined by the books.  Neither Bob the skull or any other source has mentioned the possible existence of a group of warlocks who have signed the Accords.  Indeed every mention of the Accords say the Accord nations are responsible for their own.

You claim the absence of any mention of such a group doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but there have been countless times when such a group should have been mentioned and wasn't.  Even if it no longer existed in modern times.

For example, don't you think it would have been cited in White Night? By the renegade White Court members who had been studying the freaks for generations? The mere mention of another faction would have cut the knees out from under Harry's "they're ours to defend" argument rendering his demand for a duel a moot point.  If they had ever existed the WCV (or his backers) could have said "But they were going to reform the United Warlock League and we have no peace negotiations ungoing with the UWL.  True, the UWL was destroyed in Venice in 1648 - but the ones we killed were the symbolic heirs - rending the challenge void.".

If Maggie Senior had an alternative then she would have joined them.

There have been several discussions about the Black Council and how if wizards saw it as a viable alternative they might leave the White Council for it - with no mention of other possible alternative groups.

During the short story that Thomas narrated, where the details of the Oblivion War were reveal, Thomas didn't mention his group ever having to deal with rogue wizards who were part of the Accords.

In this case the absence of evidence where evidence would be expected strongly implies that the evidence doesn't exist - and there is nothing in any of the books or short stories that even hints otherwise.

Your argument is akin to saying: "We have no proof that Dresden isn't a serial killer who kills by mundane means - because he's the narrator and he wouldn't mention the fact that he stalks and kills schoolgirls.".  When discussing the DV we have to accept as a starting point that Dresden is mostly truthful narrator (who might be wrong but doesn't lie).  That he is a narrator that has access to vast amounts of information and passes it along in a truthful way.  Otherwise we have no basis to discuss the DV.

Now if you want to talk about expanding the setting in a game to include a fractured White Council or various Accord groups of warlocks - fine.  But everything from Summer Knight, from White Night, from every source we have on the White Council and Accords say otherwise.

Cite one thing from any book or short story that supports the idea that there could be a rival faction of Mages that has ever signed on to the Accords and, if I've somehow overlooked it, I'll admit to doing so.

Richard

[Pbartender]

In the setting as written it's more or less impossible to do -

To quote The Princess Bride, "Nonsense. You're only saying that because no one ever has."

I don't think the point is that there are alt.Council organizations that are recognized by the Accords but haven't been mentioned in the books.  Rather, that the idea of the near impossibility that a current Council splinter group could independently sign on to the Accords is rather absolute.

Take a look into the process of become a Member state of the U.N. It's not easy.  It doesn't happen often.  but it does happen.  one of the biggest hurdles to it is, "international recognition as a sovereign state".  The same could be applied here...  The warlocks need to demonstrate to the other signatories that they are independent of the White Council.  That'll be tough to do, until the warlocks wage a successful "rebellion" against the White Council and get the White Council to let them govern themselves.

[zenten]

There we go.  If the White Council signed off on it they could join.

[SunlessNick]

Are the Seelie and Unseelie two factions, or one faction under Fae?  If the former, warlocks who wish to form a faction independent of the White Council might try to parley that into a precedent.  Although not all the aforementioned factions that want humans as easy pickings would necessarily go for it, since it's a precedent that might also get used on them.

They might also try to demonstrate that their magic is of a different order than that of the White Council - the Council sees itself, and wizards in general, as a bit more than just humans-with-magic - the warlocks could thus try to show that their own "more" is of a different kind (something like the way necromancy was depicted in the conversation between Harry and Kumori in Dead Beat).

If they're powerful enough that the White Council would incur too many lossses from fighting them - given the other problems it has right now - they might try to get it to sign them off on those grounds (phrased with proper diplomacy of course).

If might also help if they could provide a convincing case that the structure provided by the Accords would limit their harm to the human populace in general more than desperately struggling against the Council.


When it comes to the possibility or impossibility, most people who know what they're talking about would say that a group of warlocks would never pull this off.  But then again, most people who knew what they were talking about would also have said that a pure mortal could never have managed it either, and then Marcone did.  Sometimes the odds lose.

[Todjaeger]

A few things to keep in mind, both with respect to the Unseelie Accords and becoming a Freeholding Lord under the same...

Regarding the question of whether the Summer and Winter Courts are considered one 'Fae' faction which is signatory to the Unseelie Accords, while we so far don't know absolutely via canon, it would seem pretty unlikely from my perspective.  For one thing, they're called the Unseelie Accords.  For another, the signatories of the Unseelie Accords seem to be the different supernatural 'nations' with the Freeholding Lords being more or less like independent city-states.  I really can't see the Seelie Court and Unseelie Court as being part of the same 'nation' especially when one also has to factor in other Fae-based courts like that of the Erlking, Santa Claus (whatever he really is...) and that group of Welsh Fae.

Please note though, that the Vampire Courts, while each being essentially separate, do appear to have been signatories of the Accords together in some fashion or at least tied together in some loose alliance, which is why the White Court was attempting to negotiate a ceasefire in the Vampire War.

As for a mortal practioner/warlock getting to become a Freeholding Lord...  I seriously doubt that would be possible.
Consider Kemmler, while I suppose it might be possible that he was some kind of Freeholding Lord, it hasn't been mentioned so far.  In terms of sheer power and influence as a warlock, he was the top and as mentioned in Dead Beat, the White Council went after him and took him down.  Repeatedly.

That last bit touches on another area.  In addition to a Freeholding Lord needing to be recognized by at least three other signatories in order to sign onto the Accords, the new Freeholding Lord needs to abide by and meet the obligations of being a Freeholding Lord.  This means that there are obligations of hospitality which must be met and provided for, as well as potentially being called to act as an arbitrator between different Accords members.  There is also the risk of attack from other Accords members.  Using Baron Marcone in the short story Even Hand as an example, Marcone was a small fish in the large supernatural pond.  He was certainly capable of putting the hurt on some of the supernatural factions, but if one of the stronger ones came at him in force, there would be little he could do about it.

What this basically means is that any would-be Freeholding Lord needs to be strong enough to be dangerous to at least some of the other supernatural groups out there.  If rogue warlocks want to setup shop as their own 'nation' they can, but they can expect the White Council and their allies to come knocking, with battering rams.  Not to mention any of the other supernatural factions which don't like changes to the status quo, mortal practioners, or any one of dozens of other reasons.  In short, whoever does something like this should already have a significant amount of power, prior to contemplating such move.

-Cheers

[Tedronai]

@Richard

Again, you presume that the measure of possibility is history; that if it would ever be possible, then it has already come to pass.

It is, assumedly, possible for a sufficiently skilled and powerful practitioner of the Art to transpose themself by some means from the surface of the earth onto that of the moon, despite all the lack of evidence of that having already been accomplished in the past.  Because it is difficult, it would provide, in the end, little gain, and it would be immensely dangerous to even attempt.  Rather akin to formally splintering from a major Accorded faction.


And if it is possible, but has yet to be realized (due to nigh-incomprehensible convolutions in the Unseelie Accords, successful diplomacy averting the necessity, simple preemptive overwhelming force, or any other cause), then your entire argument falls to pieces.

[Richard_Chilton]

Take a look into the process of become a Member state of the U.N. It's not easy.  It doesn't happen often.  but it does happen.  one of the biggest hurdles to it is, "international recognition as a sovereign state".  The same could be applied here...  The warlocks need to demonstrate to the other signatories that they are independent of the White Council.  That'll be tough to do, until the warlocks wage a successful "rebellion" against the White Council and get the White Council to let them govern themselves.

The thing is, when a new country comes into being it's with international good will.  When South Sudan broke away from Sudan you didn't have the US, Russia, China, and various European powers calling Sudan a wimp for letting it happen.  You didn't see them circling like sharks on a blood trail, working out how they could occupy and annex both nations.

Many of the other signatories of the Accord are predators.  There have been several cases where it's stated "The White Council always presents an united face to the outside" because failing to do so would attract predators.  That was a big part of Summer Knight - the rest of the council didn't want a war but they needed an excuse to hand Harry over to avoid creating a precedent setting event.  The vampire courts, nickelheads, fomor, etc would love to see the freaks wiped out and if someone gave  them a chance to do it they would gladly use any pawns who are available.

As for successful rebellion etc - China has a seat at the UN.  In the 50s the Nationalist Chinese government had that seat - even though the Nationalists were reduced to Taiwan while the "rebels" held the rest of China.  Eventually the rest of the world recognised that Red China should have that seat because they were  the government of the country.  If there's a "we won't take this anymore" rebel movement in the White Council I can see the White Council Accords "seat" held by the Merlin - and when he dies whichever faction replaces him getting the seat.


But let's look at this from another angle - what would any other group of mortal spell casters gain from signing the Accords? They are already "protected" from supernatural predators by the White Council being members so what would be the benefit?
And don't say "protection from the White Council".  The Accords regulate the peaceful interactions between the nations and help define how wars are fought - the new group wouldn't be protected from the White Council any more than the Red Court Vampires were protected from the White Council declaring war on them.
Then there's the duel nature of the Laws of Magic.  Break the laws and you get the Lawbreaker feat.  Keep it up and you are looking at changing your aspects until you are a monster.  That still happens even if the last Warden is dead and the White Council scattered - so there's no real advantage to starting a lawless group.
And unlike how South Sudan came to be, the White Council can't afford discord.  It can't.  What it can afford to do is send the Blackstaff to where the new group is meeting and have him collapse the building on them.  Situations like that one - a group exploiting or hiding behind the laws of magic - is why the White Council has a wetwork man.

To sum up:
1) Any group of empowered mortals trying to get a seat at the Accords table is viewed an internal matter for the White Council to handle.
2) If it was possible for another group to get a seat then one would have - with the backing of the "enemies of humanity" Accords nations.
3) Getting a seat at the table won't give them anything they don't already have.
4) If they even try hard to get it, it's treason (see point 1) and just ask Morgan what happens to traitors.
5) If they try to exploit the White Council's own rules to get it, well that's why the White Council has the office of the Black Staff.

Can anyone cite anything in any of the books that even looks like it disproves the argument I'm making here? Because if all you have is "just because Harry didn't mention it doesn't mean it can't happen" then I'm going to counter with my "Harry Dresden - serial killer" argument.

Richard

[Tedronai]

But let's look at this from another angle - what would any other group of mortal spell casters gain from signing the Accords? They are already "protected" from supernatural predators by the White Council being members so what would be the benefit?
And don't say "protection from the White Council".  The Accords regulate the peaceful interactions between the nations and help define how wars are fought - the new group wouldn't be protected from the White Council any more than the Red Court Vampires were protected from the White Council declaring war on them.
Then there's the duel nature of the Laws of Magic.  Break the laws and you get the Lawbreaker feat.  Keep it up and you are looking at changing your aspects until you are a monster.  That still happens even if the last Warden is dead and the White Council scattered - so there's no real advantage to starting a lawless group.
And unlike how South Sudan came to be, the White Council can't afford discord.  It can't.  What it can afford to do is send the Blackstaff to where the new group is meeting and have him collapse the building on them.  Situations like that one - a group exploiting or hiding behind the laws of magic - is why the White Council has a wetwork man.

I suspect that you fail to realize that this is, in fact, a comparatively potent argument against your declared stance on the matter.

[sinker]

I really can't see the Seelie Court and Unseelie Court as being part of the same 'nation' especially when one also has to factor in other Fae-based courts like that of the Erlking, Santa Claus (whatever he really is...) and that group of Welsh Fae.

Last I recall the WoJ was that the Erlking was an aspect of winter within summer and Santa Claus was an aspect of summer inside winter. They still belong to summer and winter respectively, they just don't hang out much with their faction because their attitudes are so opposed.

Bob mentions all of the fae courts (not including any wyld fae) in the most recent book. They are the Seelie, the Unseelie, the Fomor, the Twylith Teg (or however you spell that), and....one more that I can't remember.