How far to take Grammar

[Aminar]

I'm mainly thinking proper use of commas and semicolons right now.

The purpose of writing a story is to entertain and convey the situation you are writing as convincingly as possible.  As a reader I have always perceived commas and semicolons(and dashes/ellipses) as pauses of varying length.  Stylistically that is how I'd like to approach them, but grammatically this is incorrect(At least according to MS Word, I never payed much attention in actual English classes, my knowledge is largely intuitive and observational.) 

How should I be approaching this, the intuitive way, or the by the letter of the rules approach?

[Darkshore]

The 90's way of teaching English seems to have embedded this way of thinking into many student's heads , but that isn't really how you should use them at all. If an editor looks at a manuscript flooded with miss-used comma's he or she would probably be hard pressed to give it much thought. You should really pick this up. Its helped me. http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-4th-William-Strunk/dp/0205313426/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1320711330&sr=8-2

[Shecky]

First, learn the rules. That's ALWAYS the first step. Once you've learned the rules, then you can figure out if and when you can (and sometimes should) break them.

[Starbeam]

First, learn the rules. That's ALWAYS the first step. Once you've learned the rules, then you can figure out if and when you can (and sometimes should) break them.

Yup. This.

[Aminar]

I know the rules, I've just never had much cause to use them and seem to be told I need semicolons all over the place.  More than I've seen(read noticed, I may have seen things with more and not noticed) in anything else at any rate.  Looking at a few other published novels, semicolons seem to be used rarely, and have commas in places where semicolons supposedly should be.

[Snowleopard]

Do your writing by the rules as Shecky suggests and if the publisher wants to change it or have you change it then do it.
The language is going to Hades in a picnic basket because so many people aren't even bothering to learn the rules before they break them.
When I can spot grammar and punctuation mistakes (neither of which is my strong suit) you know it's not good.

[Gruud]

As someone who uses a fair amount of semi-colons (and almost always properly  ) I think I a help with this a bit.

The reason you see so few of them in current works is because many writers (especially the published ones) have been taught/told to drop the complexity of their sentences, and indeed, their overall tone and style, to reach some magical lowest common denominator.

But, if you are writing more complex sentences, then you are most definately in need of some semi-colons.

Typically they are used to separate two independent clauses within the same sentence.

Put another way, sometimes you already have your subject and verb, but wish too expound upon them further. Lacking another subject/verb combo, you use a semi-colon to tack that expounding onto the sentence in progress.

If you use MS Word, it will often signfy the need for a semi-colon by marking a long sentence as a fragment, even though you can plainly see a subject and a proper predicate. Find the write right spot to drop in that semi and voila, she is fixed. 

The second reason to use them is for sentence rhythym (a bit longer of a pause than a comma), but at that point you have to watch your usage as you'll wind up using more than are called for, and in the wrong places.

Apparently, that's also what the "em dash" ( --) is  for  ...

I'm not sure I can recite any other rules for their use at this early hour. 

[Suilan]

Best book on Punctuation I've found so far (and I've read five cover to cover): A Dash of Style, by Noah Lukeman. It's a about style and voice and how they are created/supported by punctuation, not about classroom opinions of "right" or "wrong" punctuation. It's aimed specifically at fiction writers, so it's about the creative use of punctuation, about its literary effects, not just about clarity, which is the major concern of the non-fiction writer (and of all the other books on punctuation I've seen so far). A Dash of Style has lots of brilliant examples and a check list at the end of each chapter to help you analyze and develop your own punctuation (and writing) style.

As for your question of how far to take grammar: as far as you can, if you plan on querying agents or editors. Anything to make your manuscript stand out from all the other slush...

Having said that, punctuation is near the bottom of a long list of writing skills a beginning writer should work on, far below how to develop interesting characters, an exciting plot, and solid scene structure; how to write inspiring description and engaging dialogue; how to handle exposition; how to compose paragraphs ...

So I wouldn't worry about punctuation too much until after finishing the first draft of your novel or your first dozen or so short stories.

[Shecky]

I'm going to have to disagree partially. While, yes, it is near the bottom of the list, the list it's on is of Things Indispensable to Your Writing. Punctuation may not seem like much, but it all too easily make or break the feel of a scene; take someone out of the scene to notice punctuation, and they may very well lose whatever feeling you were trying to feel.

Punctuation and other grammatical concepts should be invisible - i.e., they should be done well enough not to get in the way of the story.

[Suilan]

I'm the choir, Shecky.

(But then, I read grammar books for fun...)

[Shecky]

I'm the choir, Shecky.

(But then, I read grammar books for fun...)

Heh. Used to have impassioned differences of opinion with one of my linguistics professors IN CLASS. But she was a linguistics geek too, so everybody enjoyed it. Except, perhaps, the other students. XD

[Suilan]

Heh. Used to have impassioned differences of opinion with one of my linguistics professors IN CLASS. But she was a linguistics geek too, so everybody enjoyed it. Except, perhaps, the other students. XD

Yep. Syntax was my favourite class back at Uni. (Though phonetics & phonology was pretty interesting as well and semantics and language dysfunctions due to brain damage and... ah, well.)

Are there linguistics professors that aren't linguistics geeks? What an odd concept.

[Shecky]

Yep. Syntax was my favourite class back at Uni. (Though phonetics & phonology was pretty interesting as well and semantics and language dysfunctions due to brain damage and... ah, well.)

Are there linguistics professors that aren't linguistics geeks? What an odd concept.

There are plenty of people who know their material but who are nevertheless not really that INTO it. Sort of like the actor-in-waiting who becomes a damn fine waiter and maitre d, with perfect service and handling of all sorts of diner/dining problems, but is just paying the bills that way until the Big Break happens. And yes, there are professors who really aren't that into their subject matter, who actually resent having to share it with others and teach them how to understand it; they just want to do their job and go home at the end of the day.