Evocation vs Mental/Social Track

[Tedronai]

The spell Harry used in the novels, the one described as "recognized by the Council as 'a mercy'", that Harry has performed on less than two occasions without showing any signs of the symptoms of 4th Law violation (a predilection to see the invasion of the mind as acceptable in ever-more-common circumstances) put it's recipients to sleep for up to several days.  That's well into the scope of consequences.

The only point I see as possibly in reasonable contention, here, is whether Harry and the Council are using a compatible definition of 'mental'.

[computerking]

Is it possible that the "Gray area" Mental effects are causing fatigue on the physical level? As Morpheus said, "Without the mind, the body cannot live." So it may be possible to cause physiological symptoms without directly damaging a target's sense of self.

Similarly, it may be possible to cause Social consequences by using physical or mental effects... Examples include causing a political candidate to stumble over a speech to reduce his approval rating(Mental effect, Social stress), or the old "oops I have a boner and the teacher asked me to write on the blackboard," nightmare (Physical effect,  Social stress).

If Mental Consequences aren't a result of the effect's stress, it might count as a gray area.

[Becq]

The only point I see as possibly in reasonable contention, here, is whether Harry and the Council are using a compatible definition of 'mental'.

This.  You can put someone to sleep, or even put someone into a coma, without changing who they are, either temporarily or permanently.  This sort of spell would inflict physical stress (YS201: "The physical stress track
is used for stress such as wounds and fatigue.")  If you are trying to inflict narcolepsy on a target, whether on a temporary or long-term basis, then you'd use the mental stress track (YS201: "The mental stress track represents psychological and emotional trauma.")

Terminology is not always precise.  For example, if a character put a gun to another's head and pulled the trigger, one could argue that the result (assuming the target even survived to make it matter) would be 'mental damage'.  Regardless, the physical stress track would be used, since it is a 'wound', rather than a psychological/emotional attack.

Note that the power to cast spells draws directly from who the caster is, which is why it uses the mental track.  Casting too many spells without resting can seriously mess a Wizard up.  The White Court's powers hit the mental track because they represent a direct attack against the target's emotions and damage to the target's soul.  Wizard's magic can do this, too ... but to do so is Lawbreaking.

[Tedronai]

This.  You can put someone to sleep, or even put someone into a coma, without changing who they are, either temporarily or permanently.  This sort of spell would inflict physical stress (YS201: "The physical stress track
is used for stress such as wounds and fatigue.")  If you are trying to inflict narcolepsy on a target, whether on a temporary or long-term basis, then you'd use the mental stress track (YS201: "The mental stress track represents psychological and emotional trauma.")

Terminology is not always precise.  For example, if a character put a gun to another's head and pulled the trigger, one could argue that the result (assuming the target even survived to make it matter) would be 'mental damage'.  Regardless, the physical stress track would be used, since it is a 'wound', rather than a psychological/emotional attack.

Note that the power to cast spells draws directly from who the caster is, which is why it uses the mental track.  Casting too many spells without resting can seriously mess a Wizard up.  The White Court's powers hit the mental track because they represent a direct attack against the target's emotions and damage to the target's soul.  Wizard's magic can do this, too ... but to do so is Lawbreaking.

I addressed this on the previous page.

[Becq]

I addressed this on the previous page.

Since I have no idea which particular comment you're referring to, I'll respond to the last page worth of your comments:

When Harry comments on the use of sleep spells, he quite clearly references them as mental effects recognized by the Council as a grey area in the Laws, acceptable in particular circumstances.

(and)

I do not recall the specific novel (though I suspect Turn Coat), but I believe that particular analysis was in reference to the use of such a spell at Murphy's (not the instance of such a spell used on Murphy), if that helps anyone else find the particular passage.

Without the specific reference, I have a hard time commenting.  However, I am quite sure that Harry has never described as merely 'grey' a spell that does the following:

The stress and consequences suffered by mental conflicts are the deepest of the deep—forays into suicidal thoughts, emotional dependencies, deep compulsions, and other behaviors and thoughts typically classified as dysfunctional in some way or another. Mental damage is the kind of damage that changes or erodes a person’s sense of self; suffering enough of these consequences over time tends to presage a trip to the mental ward, or at least to permanent counseling.

And if it doesn't do the above, then it does not use the mental stress track in DFRPG, regardless of whether or not Harry used the word 'mental' to describe a spell.  Others have pointed this out, too.

Also, I'd like to point out that while it would be certainly  possible to cause someone to fall asleep by using a spell to induce overwhelming fatigue (represented by physical stress and consequences), it would also be possible by using a spell to simply command the mind to enter the appropriate state (represented by mental stress and consequences), which I believe better represents the instances seen in the novels.

Absolutely.  And such a command would be Lawbreaking (4th).

The difference between a physical sleep spell and a mental sleep spell is the difference between "I don't know why I'm so tired, but I need to sleep now" and "I'm not tired, but, yes, you're right, I shall sleep now".

And the latter example is Lawbreaking (4th).  Note that if Ben Kenobi was a Wizard in DFRPG, then he would be a Lawbreaker (4th) ("These are not the droids you are looking for").

If the command, instead of being to sleep, was to jump off a cliff to the victim's inevitable death (quite clearly a physical result), would you still have the incremental effects be physical?

No, this would be a mental attack to place an aspect/consequence, which is later tagged for effect.  And yes, this is Lawbreaking (4th).

What if the command was to follow verbal instructions which included jumping off that same cliff?
What if the command was to take no actions, despite the physical assault the victim is being subjected to by the mage's allies?
What if, instead of a command, the spell inflicts crushing apathy resulting in the target losing the will to so much as breathe?

For all of the above, the command/compulsion itself, regardless of the end result, is Lawbreaking (4th).  The first example is probably Lawbreaking (1st) as well, though there have been arguments over this subject.

The end result in each case is clearly physical, after all.

In each case, the direct result is mental stress or aspect/consequences that are later compelled.  Physical stress is a possible end result.  I could see an argument for 'combining' the initial attack and aftermath into a single mental attack that resulted in physical stress, and if done so the result would be ... Lawbreaking (4th), because the means by which the spell acted was via compulsion/enthralment, which is a violation of the 4th Law, even if the result was physical stress for whatever reason.  You could place a compulsion on someone that forced them to set off a bomb, causing lots of AoE physical stress ... and this would still be a violation of the 4th Law (and probably the 1st Law, as well).

And yet, Incite Emotion would suggest that the last, at the least, is definitively a source of mental stress and consequences.

Yes, because, again "The mental stress track represents psychological and emotional trauma."

Do as you'd like at your table, but canon appears to treat things differently.

Please present a specific example that I can reference.

The spell Harry used in the novels, the one described as "recognized by the Council as 'a mercy'", that Harry has performed on less than two occasions without showing any signs of the symptoms of 4th Law violation (a predilection to see the invasion of the mind as acceptable in ever-more-common circumstances) put it's recipients to sleep for up to several days.  That's well into the scope of consequences.

I'll repeat here that I don't know what spell you're referring to, so I can't respond.  If you'd like to be more specific, I'd be happy to discuss this.

The only point I see as possibly in reasonable contention, here, is whether Harry and the Council are using a compatible definition of 'mental'.

And I believe I (and others) have been saying all along that the definition of mental used by DFRPG when referring to 'mental attacks' or 'mental stress' is different from that used by, for example, Harry in DF or by modern professional psychologists.

Alrighty.  If I missed anything you wish for me to consider, please let me know.

[ARedthorn]

Note that if Ben Kenobi was a Wizard in DFRPG, then he would be a Lawbreaker (4th) ("These are not the droids you are looking for").

I must, at least, contest this. He clearly just used Magic to place an aspect (Gullible?) on the target, then tagged it to boost a Deceit roll, or ruin their investigation roll. The fact that they repeated after him is hear-say. They heard it, then said it.