Evocation vs Mental/Social Track

[Sanctaphrax]

DFRPG Shadowrun stuff looks pretty good at first glance. (I assume that devonapple is Ubbi).

@InferrumVeritas: Would like to hear more.

Have you found that mental attacks tend to make combat more lethal? Are they more effective than physical attacks?

[devonapple]

Wrong assumption! This is all other people's work.

[Sanctaphrax]

Oops.

Good thing I said something, then.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I’ve expanded upon (but tried to refrain from modifying, at least based upon my interpretations) mental conflicts in my game.  The way that it has been working:

We use three different types of mental attacks. 

Psychic attacks are essentially psychic force directed against the opponent’s will.  This allows the attacker to influence the opponent’s actions, dominate, control, etc.  This type of mental attack will always be Lawbreaking (capital L for metaphysical consequences, even for sponsored magic, but how my group treats Lawbreaking and sponsored magic could be an entirely different post).  These are Spirit magic.  These must be defended against with Discipline barring specific stunt or declaration related circumstances on the part of the defender (hasn’t come up, but I provisioned for it anyway).

Sleep attacks are in many ways kid gloves version of psychic attacks, but do not inflict lasting (permanent, they can still inflict consequences for which recovery is just periods of good rest and relaxation) mental harm on the opponent.  They make an opponent drowsy mentally (not physically tired, but still needs to sleep sort of like not getting enough sleep each night).  I allow these as mental attacks based upon examples in the books as well as how the developers treated mental consequences related to spellcasting.  These are Spirit magic and not Lawbreaking (but may be lawbreaking, little-l meaning Warden enforcement depending on context).  They may be defended against with Discipline OR Endurance (see below for how Toughness powers interact).

Distraction attacks break your opponent’s ability to concentrate, distract and disorient.  They inflict mental stress in the same way as walking into a room with four different songs playing at full volume and erratic strobe lights would inflict stress.  They aren’t lawbreaking of any sort (unless flavored as causing the opponent to hallucinate rather than simply creating the images or sound, then it is Lawbreaking).  They are the province of Spirit (for light) and Air (for sound) magic.  They may be defended with either Alertness OR Discipline.

Discipline becomes the mental equivalent of Athletics in that it may be used to defend against any type of mental attack.  Endurance and Alertness were choses both for thematic reasons, but also because they are common skills for most characters allowing for things to not have to be rewritten to improve defenses against a type of attack which would become more common.

Toughness (specifically Recovery) powers also make it easier to defend against sleep attacks.  Inhuman provides +2, Supernatural +4, Mythic +6.  Physical Immunity does not provide a bonus.  This applies only to Sleep attacks and not other types of mental attacks and is extrapolated from the Vigorous and Tireless effects. 
(Note: I have debated changing this to simply providing armor equal to half this value and may playtest it soon).

Echoes of the Beast grants a +1 bonus against Distraction attacks.  Active Sight completely negates these types of effects (but will open them up to other types of mental stress, of course).
(Note: I’ve essentially allowed any power that boosts Alertness for anything other than Initiative to provide a bonus).

I'm sure I'm forgetting details, but this is the gist of it.  Let me know (either on here or by PM) if you have further questions.

[sinker]

Thematically Endurance makes no sense if the effect is entirely mental. I can understand it for balance reasons though.

[Sanctaphrax]

Thanks, but...I was trying to ask what effect your policy had on the game.

Do people still find Toughness useful?

[InFerrumVeritas]

Thanks, but...I was trying to ask what effect your policy had on the game.

Do people still find Toughness useful?

Most definitely.  The majority of attacks are still physical.  Most people fight with guns, knives, swords and their hands. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Huh, that's not what I expected.

Considering the power of mental attacks, I would expect people to use them all the time.

Though perhaps I presume too much powergamery.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Powergamery is nifty but so is playing what you want to play.  Mental attacks were on the table from day one with my group and nobody but NPCs and our lone WCV have touched anyone's mental track yet.

[UmbraLux]

Considering the power of mental attacks, I would expect people to use them all the time.

Mental attacks are situationally powerful but, if the group is splitting attacks between mental and physical stress, it can make make the group less effective.  Mental attacks are probably most useful against wizards, but wizards tend to have very good defenses against them.

[Becq]

I dunno.  Based on the description of what constitutes a 'mental attack', the idea of using a mental spell to cause sleep seems a lot like the idea of using a bomb to knock everyone in a city unconcious.

[Tedronai]

I dunno.  Based on the description of what constitutes a 'mental attack', the idea of using a mental spell to cause sleep seems a lot like the idea of using a bomb to knock everyone in a city unconcious.

And yet they are quite definitively canon.

[Sanctaphrax]

Wait, what, where?

[computerking]

Wait, what, where?

He's talking about mental evocations that cause sleep.

I hope.

[Becq]

And yet they are quite definitively canon.

I disagree.  Sleep attacks may be canon, but the 'fact' that sleep spells are best represented by Mental attacks that are not Lawbreaking are inferred at best.

Sleep attacks should (in my opinion) be physical.  Sleep attacks are not an assault against "the victim's mind, soul, or sense of self".  Mental attacks are meant to reflect attacks that inflict "deep-seated harm to one another,
crossing the line from mere social consequence into deep and abiding psychological trauma".  Consider this section of the rules:

"The stress and consequences suffered by mental conflicts are the deepest of the deep—forays into suicidal thoughts, emotional dependencies, deep compulsions, and other behaviors and thoughts typically classified as dysfunctional in some way or another. Mental damage is the kind of damage that changes or erodes a person’s sense of self; suffering enough of these consequences over time tends to presage a trip to the mental ward, or at least to permanent counseling." (YS218)

I really don't see any room for "stun bolts" or "sleep spells" in that description.  (Well, maybe if you are trying to induce narcolepsy on them.)  On the other hand, I also see this:

"The physical stress track is used for stress such as wounds and fatigue. The mental stress track represents psychological and emotional trauma. The social stress track represents the gradual loss of personal composure in the face of social pressure." (YS201)

I know the rules are ambiguous about a great many things; I just don't see the ambiguity here.  But to each his own.