Author Topic: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track  (Read 16501 times)

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2011, 01:22:57 AM »
Wouldn't be the first time a game included a rule-set that was dangerous, potentially game-breaking and inflammatory on said game's forums, not to mention ill-defined.
Wouldn't be the first in this game.  :)

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...both sides can be right.
Sounds like a weird Heisenbergian universe! 

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And me, I'd rather fix that oversight than rule out what caused it.... for lack of a better way to put it- surgery is always preferable to euthanasia.
So, if I can redirect the thread... what fixes would make the idea of direct mental damage acceptable to everyone?
If you're willing to use a metagame mechanic, available fate points (representing free will) could be used as armor against mental attacks.  Could also base it on refresh if you want something which won't change so much.  Perhaps armor equal to the difference between campaign refresh level and the number of points spent on supernatural powers.  Might make pure mortals too resistant though.  Not really happy with using metagame resources in the game either. 

One issue with both of those ideas, and with all the others I've thought of, is that it makes mental attacks (including those from WCVs) less viable.  Not sure how you keep mental attacks viable (and powerful for WCVs) while nerfing wizard's mental attacks.  I think that's what makes ruling the wizards incapable of fast mental attack so attractive.
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Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2011, 01:52:42 AM »
I really don't see the point in nerfing wizards' mental attacks.  It's not like their power is significantly more phenomenally cosmic with mental evocation.  The ones it's going to hurt worst are finger wagglers anyway, seeing as they're the only ones who use their mental track for anything but something to hold their hat.
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Offline ARedthorn

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2011, 02:25:58 AM »
Honestly... it makes sense that WCV's powers would be unaffected... sort of as a related effect of their own personal demonic copilot handling the finesse of it all. It's part and parcel of their nature, instead of a human's imperfect will being enforced.
And I more like the idea of giving non-humans a resistance... humans can always shake influence off using FPs and an appropriate aspect... and for damage, have similar options.
Non-humans have alien minds and wills tied so strongly to their nature that they can't deviate even if they want. They deserve to have that represented.

The biggest threat I see is in mixing physical and mental combat- Sancta and others have a point that it can result in some remarkably easy take-outs.
Other systems I've run in have a rule that directing damage to a non-physical trait (such as in MnM, switching from Toughness to Will) increases either the difficulty or the cost of the power. Maybe tack on a flat 2-shift cost (similar to zone) for making mental or social attacks.

Offline zenten

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2011, 01:09:59 PM »
I wouldn't worry about nerfing WCVs too much, just look at the thread about how combining Incite Emotion and their mental attack works, and go with the more powerful interpretation.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2011, 10:33:40 PM »
I'm not going to argue my position further here, but I am going to say that

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It's not like their power is significantly more phenomenally cosmic with mental evocation.

is simply not true.

Look at the Sword of the Cross ability All Creatures Are Equal Before God. It costs 3-4 refresh base and 1 FP every time you use it. It lets you bypass all Toughness powers and all mundane armour.

Mental evocations do the same thing for free. This is a big deal.

I would argue that attacking Discipline and Conviction instead of Athletics and Endurance is also an advantage, but even ignoring that...

Offline Becq

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2011, 01:09:42 AM »
Just to throw it into the mix, here's another good passage from the RAW regarding magic and mental attacks, from the section on mental conflicts on YS217:

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Being able to attack the mental stress track is no small feat. The kind of abuse necessary to inflict this kind of damage on another person usually takes a great deal of time and energy, the result of established relationships going horribly awry. Shortcuts exist—certain triggers in the character’s history might allow access to deeper recesses of the mind. Perhaps the most terrifying example of this is the mind magic available to wizards or the mental powers of other supernatural creatures. Even as total strangers, these people can instantly strike at the heart of what makes people who they are, forcing them to be temporary thralls to the creature’s will—or worse.

The wording here makes it clear (at least in my mind) that the design intends for mental attacks to be possible with magic.  The use of "instantly" makes for a strong implication that this applies to Evocation, though it might be argued that this was intended to refer to Psychomancy via Sponsored Magic's "With Evocation’s Methods and Speed".

At this point I'll stop talking about what is and/or my interpretation thereof, and start talking about what should be, or at least my take on the subject:

Mental attacks are dangerous, dangerous things.  To both sides.  They are not the DRFPG version of "Mana Bolt" from ShadowRun.  You are not sending a mental punch directly into the target's brain, with the probable result of knocking them unconcious until they gather their thoughts.

No, what you are doing (at least with Evocation; Psychomancy and specialty mental attacks like Incite allow for a more finesse) is taking aim at a fragile network of beliefs that makes up who the target is, then letting loose with a mental hammer.  Loving Husband and Father?  BAM!  Thug, but loyal to his boss?  BAM!  Woman looking forward to getting home from work to spend some time with her nearly-grown kids?  BAM!

When you shoot someone with a gun, your bullet might hit somewhere other than you intended, but the result is likely going to fall into the "hole in body, fluids leaking out, system shock" bucket.  But with mental attacks, the results can be, quite literally crazy.  They won't necessarily be permanent; on YS219, it says regarding mental/social conflict: "The second thing to keep in mind is that no conflict results are really permanent, with the potential exception of an extreme consequence."  But they should be quite dramatic when they happen.

So here would be my suggestions for Evocation-based mental attacks:
1) Think of mental conflict as a form of 'mini-game' taking place in the background of the physical conflict (or whatever the foreground scene is).  It is not simply another damage type, it is a seperate conflict happening concurrently with the scene as a whole.
2) If the target is not badly overpowered mentally, make the normal rolls and come up with a resulting consequence that will make the remaining scene interesting.  If need be, make up a random chart, or use Tarot cards or something for inspiration.  Alternatively, you might make a consequence that twists and (temporarily) conflicts with one of the victims Aspects.  Perhaps the loving husband mentioned above might have "My wife is my life" joined by the consequence "My wife is the bane of my life" until the consequence recovers.  The results may or may not be immediately apparent...
3) If the target is badly overpowered, make use of the concession rules.  The target has lost the mental conflict mini-game, and the GM (as the conceeding party) nominates the nature of the mental damage that has occured.  Be colorful, and make the result ... interesting.  Similar to #2, but potentially more extreme and/or longer-term, including potential changes to the character's aspects (though not with the permanency of an extreme consequence).  Note that Being 'taken out' in this manner does NOT necessarily mean that he has lost the physical conflict.  It might, for example, mean that the target gets shoved off the mental ledge known as 'sanity' and goes totally ape-shit berzerk -- which might change the course of the fight in an unpredictable way.  Or it might mean they go into a coma, which would knock them out of the fight completely.

Remember that every use of this against a mortal is Lawbreaking, and should result in the attacker gaining the stunt and possibly suffering an aspect shift.

In addition, consider that the books and rules describe mental attacks as an invasion into the mind of the target, which can also expose the attacker to the mind of the target.  It might be worth reflecting this by giving the attacker an aspect along the lines of "I've been in the mind of a _____" to reflect this experience.  Have this aspect last for the scene, or the session, or until its used, as appropriate.  Compel it to make the attack reel back from the horror he has exposed himself to, or suffer flashbacks, etc.

Just some ideas.

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2011, 01:33:47 AM »
Remember that every use of this against a mortal is Lawbreaking, and should result in the attacker gaining the stunt and possibly suffering an aspect shift.

Not possibly, definitely.  It's an effect of Lawbreaker.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2011, 02:56:15 AM »
Look at the Sword of the Cross ability All Creatures Are Equal Before God. It costs 3-4 refresh base and 1 FP every time you use it. It lets you bypass all Toughness powers and all mundane armour.

Mental evocations do the same thing for free. This is a big deal.

I would argue that attacking Discipline and Conviction instead of Athletics and Endurance is also an advantage, but even ignoring that...
For the record, I agree.  It's part of what makes spellcasters so potentially powerful.  I'm simply not allowing how powerful it may be to color my interpretation of the rules.  I wouldn't object at all to house rules against mental evocation attacks.  If nothing else, such a rule preserves the WCV niche.

So here would be my suggestions for Evocation-based mental attacks:
1) Think of mental conflict as a form of 'mini-game' taking place in the background of the physical conflict (or whatever the foreground scene is).  It is not simply another damage type, it is a seperate conflict happening concurrently with the scene as a whole.

<snip>

In addition, consider that the books and rules describe mental attacks as an invasion into the mind of the target, which can also expose the attacker to the mind of the target.  It might be worth reflecting this by giving the attacker an aspect along the lines of "I've been in the mind of a _____" to reflect this experience.  Have this aspect last for the scene, or the session, or until its used, as appropriate.  Compel it to make the attack reel back from the horror he has exposed himself to, or suffer flashbacks, etc.
I like the idea.  As a mini-game inside the victim's own mind, the victim would (or at least should IMO) have "home field advantage".  In short, a wide range of easy Declarations as they change their mental landscape and force the invader to fight on their terms.  (Thinking of a certain scene in Ghost Story here.)  Might be worth exploring in another thread.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2011, 04:26:07 AM »
Not possibly, definitely.  It's an effect of Lawbreaker.

The first time, yes, and every 3(?) times thereafter, but not every instance of Lawbreaking changes an aspect.


@Becq
I'm with you and UmbraLux in that I like the sound of a house-ruled 'mini-game' treatment for mental evocation attacks and would like to see it discussed in more detail in another thread.  Since you're the one to present the concept here, perhaps you would be interested in starting such a thread?
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Offline ARedthorn

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2011, 04:27:25 PM »
Not only do I like it, but it matches (very very well matches) the only detailed in-book example of such a conflict (GS).

Offline ways and means

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2011, 06:13:18 PM »
Not only do I like it, but it matches (very very well matches) the only detailed in-book example of such a conflict (GS).

Mind you that was possession rather than just tinkering and whilst the mini-game works for possession (or some other method of sub-conflict) I am not sure simple emotional projection would need it (which is probably the most common type of mental magic). 
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Offline sinker

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2011, 06:17:39 PM »
I would think some of it would have to do with your intended target as well. A full wizard who is expecting it? Definitely. A random person who has no idea that magic is even possible? Probably wouldn't get the same chance.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2011, 06:37:46 PM »
@w&m
I would see the possession as merely the intended taken-out result, and not as a primary factor in whether or not such a conflict takes place.
If one has the ability to mount a substantial defense against a major threat (like possession, or being beaten to death), then one can do so for a minor threat (like emotional projection, or having one's nose bloodied).


@Sinker
I imagine that would be better represented, for mechanical symmetric, at the least, by that poor unsuspecting sod simply having little chance in such a conflict, and quickly either conceding or being taken-out.
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Offline sinker

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2011, 06:59:34 PM »
@Sinker
I imagine that would be better represented, for mechanical symmetric, at the least, by that poor unsuspecting sod simply having little chance in such a conflict, and quickly either conceding or being taken-out.

More than anything I think I'm trying to say that I would likely compel in that circumstance. Consider that many mortals probably have some measure of discipline. In that case given decent rolls they may actually get close to holding the attacker off, and given the opportunity to make declarations/maneuvers/blocks about the landscape of their mind they may be able to comfortably hold an attacker off indefinitely. This seems incongruous with the concept of a pure mortal with no experience in the supernatural.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2011, 07:12:56 PM »
Would seem to depend on the details of this 'mini-game' solution...
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