Defensive evocation question

[Arcane257]

Since my first read through of the book I have had this nagging question about Defensive evos of both stripes. Which developers dog did they run over and how can I bring them more into line with offensive spells without unbalancing the other way.

I mean with LTWs and in a roundabout way the Merlin's example we see that being really good at them is possible just most wizards don't have the mindset for it.

The current rules pretty much means the difference between kinda skilled and super skilled for you power level nets you NOTHING. Which seems to go against all the blather we here from Harry about how highly skilled people can do stuff even more amazing than he does with much less power he just slops enough in to get it done.

I was thinking a way to bring Defensive evocations more in line with Offensive, but keep Defensive from getting too good would be to allow that every two shifts over on your target on your control roll add an effective shift of power. So two shifts to add one to your block rating or duration or four to add one to your armor rating.

I tried toying with it just adding straight shifts to your rating, but with that you quickly end up with blocks that are just stupid good. The other idea I had was to just add Half your extra shifts to power and duration as that would let you benefit as much on defense as you do offensively but that too still felt unbalancing.

Any thoughts? Other ideas?

[sinker]

Something to consider is that a weapon rating is NOT applied to the number that must overcome the block. So when a mage is trying to overcome another mage's block only the control roll matters. The shifts of the spell do nothing until the block is overcome.

[Arcane257]

Yes but your control bonuses do. So if you have foci, specializations, and the like you can break through fairly reasonably, or you know you could just counter spell the silly thing.

My biggest concern here was truthfully about non-casters and what the hell they do against a wizard with high-level matched stats... Superb in both conviction and discipline could put some pretty solid blocks out on a regular basis. Of course that's really not that much different than the high conviction wizard now who takes a bunch of defensive foci and specializations. Still a game balance issue to keep in mind.

My original concern was that super skillful (ie high discipline) type caster net you no benefits on defense. It always felt to me that the less powerful but more skillful wizards could still throw down both offensively and Defensively pretty well it was just sustaining things over more than the short term is where they ran into problems. My novels are all packed in boxes as I am getting ready to move or I would dig up the various quotes from the captain of the wardens, and the like on this. I am just trying to a solution that helps reflect that and doesn't break the game.

And before some says what about Molly my thoughts on why she doesn't count are behind spoiler warning below.

(click to show/hide)

Molly doesn't count because recent events (ghost stories) have shown us had that Harry's good intentions (and maybe subconscious fears of his apprentice?) have in some ways crippled her magically. It seems pretty clear that while she may not be predisposed to learning combat magic she could have had Harry been willing to move onto something more threatening than a snowball. Personally I think this is because in many ways he always saw her as the kid he first met, but that's just my take on things. She may never say burn down a houseful of vampires all at once, but that doesn't mean zombie slicing beams of doom are outside of her reach... just Harry's ability to teach her at the time

Sigh copy paste fail edit.

[sinker]

I guess what I was trying to say (poorly, but heck it was bedtime) is that the way I see it, a wizard who specializes in power will have a stronger defense (as the shifts of the spell are the only thing that matter), and a wizard who specializes in control will have a better offense. This may not be cannon as you say (though I think I could make an argument to the contrary, since Harry does say a couple of different times that in some circumstances power=skill) but it does work mechanically. I would worry about altering that without fully understanding the system. For example, in a chest deep game with no refinements I had a character capable of throwing up 10 shift blocks zone-wide as long as I was ok with taking a little physical stress. I can't imagine what may have happened if her control (meager though it was) was factored in.

[ways and means]

There is a better argument for it with veils actually where it is stated in the novels that skill and control out do strength. Molly who has a much lower raw magic power (conviction) than Harry is better at Veils magic because she is more subtle.

[sinker]

Meh, but someone who has a higher conviction, and doesn't have an aspect that could be compelled against them, would be even better at veils.

[Arcane257]

I see Veils as a defensive evocation and as a prime example of the game doesn't represent the novels. If you want a good Veil in game you need a lot of power and just enough skill to control it. In the novels you get the impression you need a little power and a lot of skill to make it work well... which is why Harry doesn't do them that often because while he is improving his instinct still tends to be just slope enough power into it and it will work. I would guess that veils just have so many details to them that the power just slops right out like putting water into a sieve.

[Sanctaphrax]

Actually, having really good control does help when casting non-attack evocations.

You just have to take a little extra mental stress when casting.

For example, assuming average rolls:

A wizard with power 5 control 8 can cast an 8 shift veil by using his 4th mental stress box.

A wizard with power 5 control 5 can cast an 8 shift veil by using his 4th mental stress box and his 3rd physical/mental stress box.

A wizard with 8 power 5 control can cast an 8 shift veil by using his 1st mental stress box and his 3rd physical/mental stress box.

It's really not that different.

[sinker]

If you want a good Veil in game you need a lot of power and just enough skill to control it. In the novels you get the impression you need a little power and a lot of skill to make it work well...

There's one thing I see there. When we are reading the books we are seeing the world through Harry's eyes. You're seeing Molly's skill through the eyes of someone who is terrible at it, of course she's going to look great, but if you compare her to someone who has the skill to create the veil, and the power to support greater effect (say, Ramirez) then I'm sure that she's still juvenile.

[Arcane257]

Yes when casting at mind frying levels they are skill versus power are both = (except for that whole skill burns out all their mental stress first thing and thus needs to start taking consequences to keep functioning while power can keep casting off their mental stress and shake off both types of stress come end of scene) when casting a casual one stress spell they really aren't.

The comparison I think is more valid here is High skill on offensive evocation versus High skill on defensive.

Offensive rolls well and it both more likely to hit and do so for more damage. Also because skill can make up for power you are both more likely to hit than the power over skill guy but also likely to hit for similar effect. This is why lawbreaker only adds to control.

Defensive rolls well and oh yeah the spell goes off no bonus gained.... And unless you are willing to fry the crap out of your brain your defensive spells will always suck compared to the high power guy unless for some reason he didn't rote it or has a bad roll.

Don't get me wrong I think natural power is clearly pretty valuable in the Dresdenverse but I also think its pretty clear that skill goes a long way making up the difference and right now it only does so on offensive evocations not defensive.

[Sanctaphrax]

Um, what?

On a casual one-stress spell, you need to cast at the level of your lower casting skill. Power 8 control 5 and power 5 control 8 both limit you to a 5 shift veil for one stress.

PS: I actually think that control guy is a little better off in my first example. Because of the way stress works, 1+3 is often worse than 4. Then again, not always. And being able to make backlash physical is a definite advantage...but I think I'd still rather be control guy.

[sinker]

I see what you're saying Arcane, but I really would worry about changing how the block works. Again I had a character with no refinements at all (just the normal four slots of foci and no specialization as it was channeling/ritual) capable of some serious blocks (8-10 shifts of effect for all allies). If that character took a second turn to extend the spell (as I often did) then you have an entire team of people that can not be hit except by a really lucky roll or by a equivalent evocation. This is with the system as is. If you add to those blocks then only other wizards will be capable of dealing with an evocation block without a giant pile of fate points.

[Arcane257]

Yeah thats my fear is making blocks too cool. I figure I will just go with every two shifts just adding a free exchange of duration.

[Sanctaphrax]

I still don't know exactly what the problem is here.

Control is just as important as power when casting a veil. Power greater than control is wasted, control greater than power is wasted. Either can be boosted with stress.

So...what exactly are you trying to fix?

[Arcane257]

Ok lets look at it this way Sanctaphrax.

Four power two control gets a 0 on 4df they get 2 shifts or they can can take two stress in ether mental or physical as fall out for four to build their shield with.
two power four control gets a 0 on 4df they get two shifts to build their shield with.

4 power 2 control gets a +2 on 4df they four shifts to build their shield with...
2 power 4 Control gets +2 on 4df they get four shifts to build their shield with.

If this were offensive the control would at least have the chance of doing more damage by exceeding the athletics roll of the target and power would have the chance of missing because its targeting roll would be lower so they balance better. In defensive evocations there is no such balance.