Using Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion

[Tedronai]

This is how I see it two, a merging of the powers so that both powers gain the benefits of the others (taste of death +1 bonus, +x weapons rating + range etc) but only one attack happens.

Except that Emotional Vampire makes no mention of having to be used in combination with an Incite Emotion attack, so what happens when the Incite Emotion is blocking?
RAW still says that you get the Emotional Vampire attack as part of the same roll.

[ARedthorn]

Emotional Vampire DOES, however, state that it only works on someone feeling an eligible emotion... So if the target was already feeling said emotion, Emotional Vampire succeeds.
Otherwise, it fails by default.

You can take a separate action to make a declaration (spend a FP), or an assessment or maneuver (roll)... but then it takes you 2 rounds to be able to start feeding at all... in this instance, all Incite Emotion does is provide a shortcut past that extra action.

Lasting Emotion/Potent Emotion just increase the total damage of either.

[Tedronai]

So, you're fine with allowing the combination to grant dual actions so long as one of them is a block?  I don't see where that is so much more preferable.

[Watson]

...in this instance, all Incite Emotion does is provide a shortcut past that extra action.

Yes, but doing that as a Maneuver to place an Aspect on the target as well as attacking (that is how I interpret the phrase "If you have the Incite Emotion ability, inciting the emotion and feeding on it may be done as a single action, based on a single roll" from YS189).

Being able to place an Aspect through a Maneuver and to Attack is really powerful (especially if it can be done every exchange in addition to tagging the Aspect created to further increase the stress caused).

[Silverblaze]

Not quite as bad as two full attacks though.

Honestly i think Evil Hat was referring to base incite emotion not with upgreades and the play testers never had someone try hitting someone with lasting emotion and feeding atteh same time.  Double Whammy!

Hopefully the devs read the forums and address teh situation in an errata section in an upcoming source book.

[ARedthorn]

I don't have it function as an aspect, either. Let me see if I can rephrase this.

It's like Emotional Vampire has a Catch (for lack of a better way of putting it).
Tacking Incite Emotion on to that doesn't add an extra affect. It doesn't add a maneuver. It doesn't add an extra damage effect. It doesn't add a block. It doesn't add fruitcake or apples. It satisfies that catch.

Further tacking Lasting Emotion onto that increases the damage potential of either attack by Weapon:2, but you still can't do both of them at the same time- just one or the other. Lasting Emotion exactly equals the Lethal Weapon stunt for psychic damage, and isn't broken because it applies to both anymore than any equivalent similar ability.
Ditto Powerful Emotion (for a further +2, total Weapon:4)... this outstrips the equivalent stunts, but it is a power after all, and costs more refresh to take it to this level.

Tacking Ranged onto Incite Emotion could conceivably allow feeding at a distance for the same argument as I have above, but we've never seen a WCVamp do so in the books, and while I think increasing the Weapon Rating of 2 separate but nearly identical (and definitely related) actions with a single refresh is fair, I think making both of them ranged might be worth more than that.

Make sense now?

[Tedronai]

I think I see what you're trying to say, but I definitely do not see how the RAW could be honestly read in that manner (though, if this is meant merely as a house-rule to address a perceived game-breaking imbalance, it works fine, imho).

[ARedthorn]

RAW, no, but Rules As Read, I have to disagree... there is some room for interpretation as to what they meant by "as one action"... and I think what I'm saying fits into that room.
Moreover, I don't see any other interpretations that fit in the same room and don't cause at least some problems.

1) Certainly, we all agree the double-whammy is out.
2) Combining the two powers into a single power (with all the trappings of both) is safe.

So I'm sticking to 1.8, roughly speaking.

[ways and means]

I think everyone agrees that two mental attacks a turn would be game breaking (though perfect legitimate by the RAW) mind you not allowing the combining of the incite emotion upgrades and emotional vampires does make the upgrades superfluous (what would you rather have a +2 to accuracy (+3 on every hit after the first) + a aspect (so another +2 on every hit after the first for a total of +5) or +4 weapons rating for twice as much refresh. 

[Tedronai]

for twice as much refresh.

More accurately, 'for as much refresh again'.

[computerking]

"If you have the Incite Emotion ability, inciting the emotion and feeding on it may be done as a single action, based on a single roll" from YS189).

Being able to place an Aspect through a Maneuver and to Attack is really powerful (especially if it can be done every exchange in addition to tagging the Aspect created to further increase the stress caused).

Isn't that similar to the "Special Effect Attack" rule? Weapon rating goes to Placing the aspect, overflow goes to damage?

[Tedronai]

Isn't that similar to the "Special Effect Attack" rule? Weapon rating goes to Placing the aspect, overflow goes to damage?

Except that, by default, the attack in question has no weapon rating.

[ARedthorn]

by default, incite emotion isn't even capable of causing stress.
nor emotional vampire of creating maneuvers.

by combining them, we end up with a non-default situation, so why does default matter?

[Tedronai]

'the attack' being the combined use of both Incite Emotions and Emotional Vampire, which, by default, both places a maneuver-aspect and causes stress

[ARedthorn]

In which case, we're back in the territory of special effect attacks.

But wouldn't it be a wash anyway?
Let's talk through it, mechanically.

On subsequent exchanges, if the emotion is still in place you may continue to feed, gaining a +1 on the roll

If the target has to have a viable emotion in order for you to feed on them... the way I'd run that is that I'd require the WCVamp to either do a maneuver, or make a declaration/assessment to place an emotion aspect on the target.
They then use that aspect not to gain a bonus to their roll... but to be able to feed in the first place.
If it's a fragile aspect, then using it to gain a +2 would make it go away... at which point you wouldn't be able to feed off them anymore.
If it's sticky, then using it to gain a +2 would still be problematic (easier to resist, since you have to split your shifts between power and duration), repeated uses cost FP, and it still eventually goes away, at which point you can't feed anymore.

So if you're concerned about the WCVamp who gets a free maneuver with his attack... I'm concerned about the WCVamp who's dumb enough to cure his target mid-feeding.

Sure, they can re-establish the emotion next round, with another combined action... but I'd say that resets the process, too. They'd be trading their +1 for subsequent exchanges for a one-time +2 each time... not very broken all told, IMO.