Using Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion

[Watson]

We are finally making characters next week, and one of the players will play a WCV. So I took a deeper look at the signature abilities of that Template - Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion, and found them to be really powerful. So I wanted your take on how they would work in the game.

The Emotion-Touch (from Incite Emotion) and Feeding Touch (from Emotional Vampire) require touch - does the character first have to succeed with a Fists roll in order to be allowed to use the abilities or is it enough to be in the same zone? If not, the example below becomes even more powerful. If a suitable roll (not a regular Attack, though) to touch is necessary (like a Declaration of Fists against Athletics to declare that you have touched the target), I suppose that the Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion rolls are done without any penalties.

The two powers seems very powerful. By giving an example of an attack using Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion, I would like to see if I have understood it correctly.

Emotion-Touch (from Incite Emotion) lets the character make a Maneuver with +2 to place a suitable Aspect on the target that is in line with the emotions that the attacker can feed from. Feeding Touch (from Emotional Vampire) lets the player make a Mental attack using the same roll that was used to incite the emotion (without the +2, I hope). If the emotion is still there during the next round, the attacker gets +1 on the Feeding Touch (I suppose this is not cumulative).

Exchange 1
Let's say that the attacker gets a 2 on his Deceit roll and the defender gets a 3 on his Discipline roll during the first exchange. The Emotion-Touch allows a +2 to the Maneuver to incite the emotion (resulting in a total of 4), so the Aspect, for instance, Lustful is placed on the target. The Emotional Vampire lets the attacker do a Mental attack using the same roll (I suppose without the +2 for the Maneuver), but the attack misses as the Deceit roll was only a 2 (and the Discipline roll was a 3). I suppose that the vampire can not tag the Aspect, as it is for the same roll as the Maneuver.   

Exchange 2
The vampire attacks again, this time rolling a 4 on his Deceit. The defender rolls a 3 on his Discipline. As the emotion is still in place, the vampire gets +1 on his attack (as stated under Feeding Touch), raising the attack to a 5. Then the player tags the Lustful Aspect for another +2 for a total of 7. On top of that, Feeding Touch says that Emotion-Touch can be used to incite an emotion using the same roll (another Maneuver), so the player chooses to add another Aspect. The target now gets 4 Mental stress.

Is this a correct interpretation - that the vampire can create a new Aspect every Exchange and tag the one from the previous round (if he so wishes)? All of this for a cost of 2 Refresh (without Lasting Emotion and doing all this at range)...

Please give me your thoughts on using Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion combo.

[polkaneverdies]

I don't have access to my books ATM so take this with a grain of salt.
I would require a fists roll to successfully touch if they don't have the at range upgrade. Incite emotion gives you two options. You can attack or place a maneuver on them, but they are not the same thing. If feeding says you can use your attack roll to do it then you would need to be attacking with it to feed.

[Watson]

I don't have access to my books ATM so take this with a grain of salt.
I would require a fists roll to successfully touch if they don't have the at range upgrade. Incite emotion gives you two options. You can attack or place a maneuver on them, but they are not the same thing. If feeding says you can use your attack roll to do it then you would need to be attacking with it to feed.

The basic Emotion-Touch (from Incite Emotion, not the Lasting Emotion upgrade) allows for a Manuever or a Block, not an Attack. The Mental Attack comes from the rule under Feeding Touch (from Emotional Vampire), where the latter specifically says that inciting an emotion (using Incite Emotion) and feeding from it (using Emotional Vampire) can be done as one single roll, thus my question about the creation of an Aspect and an Attack each Exchange (which seems too powerful).

[polkaneverdies]

Ah my mistake. Is it only the  1 point upgrade that adds 2 to the weapon rating that allows you to actually attack then?

[Watson]

Ah my mistake. Is it only the  1 point upgrade that adds 2 to the weapon rating that allows you to actually attack then?

Correct.

[sinker]

Yes WCVs do have a very powerful first punch (especially when they start picking up upgrades to incite emotion).

As far as I can tell you're actually reading it a little less powerful than it actually is. I don't see any reason why +2 wouldn't apply to both since it is a single roll (and therefore one number). That same logic would remove the possibility of tagging the aspect on the first exchange though since the roll is resolved before the aspect is placed, so I think you're right on that one. On the second exchange however I would think that you could really only use feeding touch and not emotion touch. The emotion is already incited, from this point on I would use consequences to represent any further emotional frenzy.

[Watson]

As far as I can tell you're actually reading it a little less powerful than it actually is. I don't see any reason why +2 wouldn't apply to both since it is a single roll (and therefore one number).

The +2 is specific to the Maneuver, so I would say that it is only applicable to the Maneuver and not the attack, despite the fact that the same roll is being used (it is not applicable for the Block, that can also be done with the Emotion Touch).

On the second exchange however I would think that you could really only use feeding touch and not emotion touch. The emotion is already incited, from this point on I would use consequences to represent any further emotional frenzy.

I can't see that the Emotion Touch can't be used on a subsequent exchange, even though the emotion is already in place (i.e. the Aspect is still on the target, meaning that the Aspect was tagged and not fragile). Making a new Maneuver every exchange creates a new Aspects that it free to tag on the next exchange - it's the Maneuver (generating a free tag) every exchange, in addition to the attack, that making this combo really good. If I read the rules incorrectly, please point this out. Please note that, technically, each new Aspect needs to be described slightly differently (but still the same emotion).

So, essentially, the Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion combo (for only 2 points of Refresh) becomes a Mental stress machine with Mental attacks at Discipline +3 (+2 from tagging the Aspect from the previous exchange and +1 from the bonus for Feeding Touch) that ignores any armor - assuming that the vampire is able to touch the victim and that the Maneuver from the previous exchange was successful.

On the other hand, I would rule that it is only working on beings able to feel emotions (no such attacks against BCV's or other "monsters").

[sinker]

The +2 is specific to the Maneuver, so I would say that it is only applicable to the Maneuver and not the attack, despite the fact that the same roll is being used (it is not applicable for the Block, that can also be done with the Emotion Touch).

The +2 is specific to the roll (check the power again) which is where I see the problem.

I can't see that the Emotion Touch can't be used on a subsequent exchange, even though the emotion is already in place (i.e. the Aspect is still on the target, meaning that the Aspect was tagged and not fragile). Making a new Maneuver every exchange creates a new Aspects that it free to tag on the next exchange - it's the Maneuver (generating a free tag) every exchange, in addition to the attack, that making this combo really good. If I read the rules incorrectly, please point this out. Please note that, technically, each new Aspect needs to be described slightly differently (but still the same emotion).

I guess this comes down to how you feel about aspects. There are two reasons why I don't like this. The first is that you are invoking the same emotion. The question I would ask to the player is "How is this different from the first aspect?" The only responses I can see are "It's more intense" which I would rather represent with consequences, or "Technically it isn't."

The second reason I don't like this is the age old argument of "Are some aspects better than others?" If you allow a person to keep throwing out aspects so long as they are different then you essentially punish players who aren't creative. I dislike this in the same way that I dislike talking out all social encounters with no rolls. It makes it so that no matter what your character is, you're still limited by your own abilities, and the whole point of role-playing is to step into the shoes of someone with different specialties than you.

Anyway I know it's a personal call (though the RAW is rather ambiguous) but it's just what I would say. No additional aspects if the first one remains.

[Silverblaze]

Been told you can use both emotional vampire and incite emotion in one attack.  Seems like too much mnetal stress to fast, especially with a few stunts and power upgrades.  Could be a "one shot, one kill" scenario.  Tag a aspect or two for best effect.  Very powerful.

[Watson]

In my upcoming game, where we have a WCV, I would probably rule that as long as the target already have one suitable Aspect, the WCV can not incite another [similar] emotion.

The "problem" is in this case that the WCV in that case would like to make the emotion a fragile Aspect (as that removes the Aspect after tagging it, thus enables the WCV to incite it again and create a new Aspect that can be tagged...). But if the player is reading the book and wants to exploit this, YS208 says "Obviously, if you established the maneuver aspect, you can end it whenever you want without a roll" which means that the player can end it at the end of every exchange, which ought to let the player incite the emotion again the next turn... The fact that it would be considered abusing the system is a different thing...

On the other hand, I suppose that the use of this combo is somewhat limited based on that the target must be able to feel the type of emotion that the WCV is trying to incite - trying to affect a BCV or a Denarian should not be possible.

[ways and means]

I would imagine a BCV could feel fear, despair, rage etc pretty easily as for Denarian's well angels can clearly feel anger pride, despair and the people they inhabit could feel all emotions so incite emotion could probably be used freely on them (Thomas used it on a possessed women without a problem). Any thing that is cable of feeling is probably capable of having there feelings incited.

[Tedronai]

In my upcoming game, where we have a WCV, I would probably rule that as long as the target already have one suitable Aspect, the WCV can not incite another [similar] emotion.

What about the block function of Incite?

[Watson]

What about the block function of Incite?

I think that the Block ability as part of the Incite Emotion is OK, as it does not get +2 to the roll (YS173 says "... do maneuvers at +2 to your roll"...) and I interpret 'Feeding Touch' to allow an Attack at the same time as doing the actual inciting (I read that as doing the Maneuver to add the Aspect - not the Block part of Incite Emotion).

So, as I see it, the Block part of Incite Emotion can not be abused in the same extreme manner as the Maneuver part (in combination with Emotional Vampire).

[wyvern]

Huh.  I would simply not allow a maneuver and an attack as a single action.  Compare, for example, Blood Drinker - it's basically the same power, just physical instead of mental.  And it opens up with a maneuver to "draw blood", followed by allowing subsequent attacks at +1.  So I'd read the "inciting and feeding on it may be done as a single action..." part as being an example of "As a baseline, whenever you're near an 'eligible' strong emotion, you may draw in mild sustenance from it.  This... doesn't have much of an immediate effect."

In other words, IC, you're starting to feed.  OOC, you've made a maneuver, but have not yet attacked.  Any other interpretation runs into the game balance problems that have been discussed in this thread.

[Arcane257]

Yeah except incite emotions by itself can inflict emotional stress with upgrades. So you are saying once they have the upgrade they can do both then?