How can non spellcasters do minor magic effects? (Spoilers - maybe?)

[JediDresden]

Thomas for example can open portals to and from the NN at locations he has a connection to(i.e. strip clubs and brothels).  Butters learned how to make magic circles easily.  Thomas even learns a tracking spell in one of the Short Stories.

I picture this as a simple lore role and not Ritual, with maybe a tag to an aspect if it applies (like in Thomas' case of finding entrances to the NN).  Am I right on this, or way off?

On a side note I think it mentions how hard it is to open a way to the NN, but I do not have books handy - anyone know?

[devonapple]

Nevernever travel:
Although it isn't explicitly established in each supernatural faction's description, it is established elsewhere (sorry, no page numbers at the moment) that supernatural creatures can access the Nevernever in locations which have an affinity with that creature's general ethos/energy/outlook: White Court can use brothels/clubs/etc.; Black Court could probably use graveyards; Fae presumably can use natural settings, though certain subtypes may have other affinities, such as Brownies and shoe stores; Red Court, ummm.... nevermind. In those cases, a player opening the portal is presumably Invoking their High Concept; the GM can presumably let an NPC do it just because.

For other supernatural/magical effect:
It sounds most elegant to use a Lore check to establish an Aspect which can be Invoked to gain the effect. Increase the Lore check to establish more complex/powerful Aspects. Using smaller Aspects to build up for that final skill check is a good idea. Although the precedents set in the narrative make it a little bit of a challenge to adjudicate where the line is drawn between Lore-created Aspect and Thaumaturgy/Evocation, but a GM can fall back on "I know it when I see it."

[JediDresden]

That is pretty much what I was thinking, but Harry opens ways up quite quickly and easily it seems, I just assumed a Thaumaturgy spell that he did not need to prep for, i.e. the difficulty was less than his lore (which is probably why he found weaker entry points to the NN).

[Richard_Chilton]

How about invoking the character's high concept? That should work for minor effects.

E.G. White Court vampires are known to be able to travel the Nevernever, but they are limited on where they can open doorways.  Thomas' player invokes his high concept and opens a door around a brothel, sex club, or anywhere that is very significant to him.  If he's not in one of those places he can't do it.

Richard

[Becq]

Nevernever travel:
Although it isn't explicitly established in each supernatural faction's description, it is established elsewhere (sorry, no page numbers at the moment) that supernatural creatures can access the Nevernever in locations which have an affinity with that creature's general ethos/energy/outlook

YS171, it talks about this a little in the descriptions for Swift Transition and Worldwalker as well as a bit more explicitly in the sidebar.  Also a bit more on YS283, where it says:

"In these places, many supernatural creatures can cross into and out of the Nevernever as a casual effort—as simply as you might walk from one room to the next—so long as the place has a strong affinity for the creature in question (plenty of White Court vampires use strip clubs and the like)."

No system it given, but 'casual effort' makes me think that it might not even require a roll.

[devonapple]

No system it given, but 'casual effort' makes me think that it might not even require a roll.

Nor a Fate Point, even!

[razorsmile]

Hmm.

So, to extrapolate, ghouls can hop into the NeverNever via mass graves? Butcher shops? Deserts (they do originate in pre-Islamic Arabian mythology)? Maybe the Alphas might learn to do so via "wild places?"

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Maybe the Alphas might learn to do so via "wild places?"

I wouldn't think so, they have no ties to the NN.  Their origins are strictly of the mortal world, so they'd have to learn a new trick.

[devonapple]

So, to extrapolate, ghouls can hop into the NeverNever via mass graves? Butcher shops? Deserts (they do originate in pre-Islamic Arabian mythology)? Maybe the Alphas might learn to do so via "wild places?"

I have no idea what to do with Ghouls. I'm inclined to suggest that a necropolis, graveyard, or a mass grave (as you suggested) would work, but that may be my association of them with ghouls as portrayed in Lovecraft and D&D.

Returning to the idea that this type of passage is made possible by sympathetic associations and spiritual energy, and dissociating Dresdenverse ghouls from the strictly undead variety in other fictions, I come back to thinking that places of large-scale murder or death would make sense. So, yeah: mass graves; butcheries; places where a plagued caused a quick, painful death for many people; execution rooms that get a LOT of innocent clientele (presumably in third-world dictatorships).

If we went for things which literally resonated with the unending ghoul hunger, then butcheries would make sense, but we would also have them appearing in places of acute gluttony, like all-you-can-eat restaurants, which doesn't seem like it would really fit.

[Becq]

By the way, I think that the balancing factor for this sort of 'freebie' power is that it is not particularly predictable.  Yes, a Black Court Vampire can probably step into the Nevernever directly from a graveyard without any spellcasting or worldwalking.  But ... well, what is the portion of the Nevernever that touches a graveyard going to look like?  And will the creatures that inhabit that portion of the Nevernever accept his Undead Unioun card?

I suspect that while this capability is useful, that those who make use of it probably need to be very careful, scouting things out in advance, possibly making bargains of some sort with those on the other side (or otherwise pacifying it).  Those who step through unprepared are likely never heard from again.