Cleaning Up The Stunt List

[Tedronai]

(I meant conviction, as I had obviously already been working on the contacts stunts; and this is why I went to sleep)


Fire And Brimstone: not quite whole skill, but should specify a trapping, either 'social attacks' (personal preference) or 'threats' (poorly defined in the RAW, and contains clauses that would make necessary additional language in this stunt)

Religious Contacts: moves whole skill under condition; extremely wary

Boosted Hexes needs a slight language tweak, add 'for the purposes of calculating the shifts of power necessary for you to deliberately hex it'

You Do Not Want To See My Soul:  the +1 limit to attack-boosters has no escape clause for particularly limiting conditions on its use; consider changing to +1 attack, +1 stress as a compromise
further (a minor issue) the name of this stunt seems more appropriate as an aspect; consider renaming

Lay On Hands: this is a stunt+, moving a trapping from scholarship and providing an additional benefit that that trapping explicitly lists as requiring a stunt even for users of scholarship (see canon stunt 'doctor')
suggest splitting into two, with this stunt as a prerequisite


From Another Time: whole skill

Bunker Builder: specify that duration of preparation and duration of effect are subject to GM discretion

Bricoleur: whole skill, but at least it's not a +2; still a problem

Skilled Bricoleur: whole skill, and with no true limiting conditions, to boot

Master Bricoleur:  2/3 trappings at +2 equivalent, with 2 prerequisites but no true limiting conditions; I might be convinced at half current benefit

Big Pocking Wrench: 2/3 trappings at +2, with a highly improbably condition (show me how you're going to gain a benefit to fixing a modern radio by using a giant wrench)

Scavenger: significant overlap with the Bricoleur tree, and +2 to two trappings

Sneaky Bastard: add usual prep time and duration discretionary clause


Feint: add a description of the general sort of aspects to be created with this stunt

Superior Feint: specify Dodging trapping of Athletics
add 'via the Feint stunt'; it doesn't make sense for this stunt to benefit you as a result of you having identified yourself with a pseudonym

One Big Lie: specify Falsehood and Deception trapping

Impenetrable Bluff: use definition rather than word 'bluff' in crunch section
specify a single trapping, probable Falsehood and Deception

Wearing An Extremely Trustworthy Face: (sounds more like an aspect name; consider renaming)
either specify between Cat and Mouse vs Falsehood and Depection or drop bonus to +1

Founded Upon Lies: specify aspects created via Falsehood and Deception

Houdini: no existing trapping seems appropriate to receive this bonus; suggest reworking to instead add such a trapping, or use Defensive Lies as a prerequisite and apply the bonus to that trapping (preferred)

Faustian Pact: specify Cat&Mouse trapping; add 'for that attack' (y'know, to prevent this stunt from turning contracts into handguns)

Illusions of Grandeur: specify First Impressions trapping

'Honest' Lawyer: minor language tweak: 'Deceit skill as a knowledge skill for legal matters instead of your Scholarship skill.'

Master Manipulator: specify between Cat&Mouse vs Falsehood&Deception

'Good Intentions': specify trapping

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm not awake enough right now to respond in detail, but there's something I'd like to point out immediately.

Stunts are allowed to boost entire skills if they have limiting conditions of some sort. As long as the stunt boosts no more than half of the skill's uses, it's kosher.

For canonical examples of whole-skill-boosting stunts, see:

Car Mechanic
Honest Lies
Pilot
Won't Get Fooled Again
Filthy Lucre

and some stunts in OW that I can't be bothered to look up.

[Tedronai]

'Limiting conditions' are the default for nearly all possible stunt effects, but I do concede that there are some example stunts in the rulebooks that do not abide by the guidelines for creating stunts in YS. (and some of those simply don't make sense when interpreted as written; for instance, having caught someone in a lie somehow makes it substantially easier to provide them with psychotherapy than if they had simply told the truth)
More to the point, though, I do not view my comments on these stunts as a mandate that they must be changed, only a list of concerns and suggestions that I would hope be considered sincerely and critically.

[Sanctaphrax]

Certainly didn't mean to accuse you of giving orders or anything, sorry if it came across that way.

But the "whole skill" stunts are not a mistake. I regard them as the one of the ways stunts are supposed to work, and I feel pretty confident in my opinion.

What matters is how often you get the bonus and what the bonus boosts.

[Tedronai]

Even where those 'whole skill' stunts are strictly superior rewrites of canon stunts that do follow the guidelines? (see Spring-heeled vs Mighty Leap)

According to YS148, a 'broad application' of a single trapping earns you a +1 bonus.  How narrow does an application have to be, then, to be applied to all trappings of a skill?  And how much more narrow for the bonus to be +2?
I don't necessarily have a problem with using the printed examples to infer more options than listed in the guidelines, but I would at least have those options reasonably codified and consistent.

[Sanctaphrax]

Stunts can and do give +2 to entire trappings. It's not even unusual. See:

On My Toes
Paranoid? Probably.
Fleet Of Foot
Human Spider
Ear To The Ground
Rumourmonger
Calm Blue Ocean
Like The Back Of My Hand
The Social Graces
Gun Nut
Infuriate
You Don't Want Any Of This
Pin The Tail (this one even has an extra benefit)
Finely Tuned Third Eye
Mighty Thews
Personal Magnetism
Lush Lifestyle
High Quality Workspace

The restriction on a stunt bonus can be more or less anything, as long as it prevents the stunt from boosting the skill more than half the time.

It says so in the Building Mortal Stunts section of YS (page 147). At least, that's the way I read that section.

I'll get to individual stunts next post.

[Tedronai]

Stunts can and do give +2 to entire trappings. It's not even unusual.

See above re: example stunts failing to follow the creation guidelines.  I was under the impression that this was commonly understood.

The restriction on a stunt bonus can be more or less anything, as long as it prevents the stunt from boosting the skill more than half the time.

It says so in the Building Mortal Stunts section of YS (page 147). At least, that's the way I read that section.

Except where that flies directly in the face of any reasonable interpretation of the enumerated options, which begin on page 148.
A broad application of a single trapping being representative of half of all uses of that skill is an anomaly, and that is described as being limited to a +1 bonus.
The only Trappings that I can think of off hand where a moderately restrictive application could exceed half of all uses of that stunt would be in cases such as Fists attacks, a skill that is notably anemic to the point of causing balance issues even in this system.

[Sanctaphrax]

Good points about Alertness stunts.

Sportsman was discussed starting here. I'm considering ditching it, what do you think?

Will edit I Grew Up Doing This.

I don't mind if Land On Your Feet provides an unusually large bonus in some cases. I cannot imagine a scenario where resistance to falling damage breaks anything.

Spring-Heeled is not strictly better than Mighty Leaps. Mighty Leaps is better when moving past multiple borders at once. And it's useful when mixing jumps into sprint actions. Spring-Heeled lacks those benefits. But I should clear up its wording a bit, now that I look closely.

I disagree about The §$%& Bastard Will Not Escape. Can't recall a single time this would have been useful in my time playing this game. And I don't mind if the stunt names are a bit aspect-y.

Will edit Security Expert.

Will edit The Boss. (Disappointed about this one, I tried to make it clear.)

Minions, Attack! is intentionally vague. I think it's too complex to nail down properly in a stunt writeup. And I'd expect different groups to handle it differently.

Will follow suggestions concerning other Minion stunts.

I'm Looking For Mr. Brown is supposed to boost only a very specific application of Gathering Information. Will make that clear.

Will clarify On The Watch.

Network Of Informants ties back into what I was saying before.

Will clarify Fire And Brimstone.

I, also, am wary of Religious Contacts. But it's probably not too bad as written. It's pretty narrow, you know?

Will edit Boosted Hexes.

Soulgaze attacks are rare and not very powerful. A +2 bonus seems fair to me, as an exception.

My impression from reading the canon Doctor stunt is that justifying physical consequence recovery is practically free. Doctor is as good as Scientist even without the recovery justification. And Wizard's Constitution is free anyway. So I figured I could tack it onto Lay On Hands without too much trouble. Although now that I reread it, it can be taken not to give that benefit. Not sure whether to edit.

Will clarify Bunker Builder.

Bricoleur only boosts Declarations and Assessments.

The latter two Bricolage stunts totally have limiting conditions. Not sure what you're saying.

Big Pocking Wrench might be a bit weak, but oh well.

Will make all suggested Deceit edits, with the exception of the ones that say "specify trapping" for a stunt other than Illusions Of Grandeur.

[Sanctaphrax]

See above re: example stunts failing to follow the creation guidelines.  I was under the impression that this was commonly understood.

Except where that flies directly in the face of any reasonable interpretation of the enumerated options, which begin on page 148.
A broad application of a single trapping being representative of half of all uses of that skill is an anomaly, and that is described as being limited to a +1 bonus.
The only Trappings that I can think of off hand where a moderately restrictive application could exceed half of all uses of that stunt would be in cases such as Fists attacks, a skill that is notably anemic to the point of causing balance issues even in this system.

There are roughly 103 stunts in YS. I listed 18 of them in my previous post. And there were more marginal examples that I left out.

This is not a few isolated mistakes. This is the dominant paradigm.

The majority of the material on stunts supports my position here. The examples, the rules text, everything except the list of bullet points that gives guidelines for stunt creation.

Moreover, my position is more sensible from a balance perspective. Not all trappings are created equal, and there are plenty of them that could get a blanket +2 without issue.

PS: 50% is the limit, not the base. I generally aim below that because I know that people will do what they can to use their stunts as much as possible.
PPS: Thanks again for taking the time to talk about this.

[Tedronai]

I was just in the middle of a detailed point-by-point response to the sections I would contest and suffered a power outage.  This is why I miss my laptop.
I'll get back to this tomorrow.

[Sanctaphrax]

Well that sucks.

Looking forward to your reply.

[Tedronai]

Sportsman was discussed starting here. I'm considering ditching it, what do you think?

In the absence of a reasonable means to balance this stunt, I see little alternative.

I don't mind if Land On Your Feet provides an unusually large bonus in some cases. I cannot imagine a scenario where resistance to falling damage breaks anything.

The problem I see is not an unusually large bonus, but an unusually variable one.  A character optimized to make best use of this stunt could conceivably bring in effective bonuses as high as +6 on a relatively regular basis.  It is also equally conceivable that a character who does not priororitize athletics but who takes this stunt could reap no benefit whatsoever from using it on a similarly regular basis (as compared to opportunity, not strict frequency).

Spring-Heeled is not strictly better than Mighty Leaps. Mighty Leaps is better when moving past multiple borders at once. And it's useful when mixing jumps into sprint actions. Spring-Heeled lacks those benefits. But I should clear up its wording a bit, now that I look closely.

I will reevaluate my position on this stunt when I see the new wording.

I disagree about The §$%& Bastard Will Not Escape. Can't recall a single time this would have been useful in my time playing this game. And I don't mind if the stunt names are a bit aspect-y.

I can't recall a single time any of the 'canon' performance stunts would have been worthwhile in my time playing this game.  That doesn't mean that I'd advocate substantially increasing their power.

Network Of Informants ties back into what I was saying before.

Going to have to be more specific.

I, also, am wary of Religious Contacts. But it's probably not too bad as written. It's pretty narrow, you know?

For a game significantly featuring religious organizations, a religiously affiliated character might benefit from this stunt on the vast majority of their contacts rolls.

Soulgaze attacks are rare and not very powerful. A +2 bonus seems fair to me, as an exception.

They're generally rare, yes, but only because of their double-edged nature.  I'm wary of any stunt that tries to subvert that nature, particularly ones that do so by citing it as cause to be exempted from the standard guidelines.

My impression from reading the canon Doctor stunt is that justifying physical consequence recovery is practically free. Doctor is as good as Scientist even without the recovery justification. And Wizard's Constitution is free anyway. So I figured I could tack it onto Lay On Hands without too much trouble. Although now that I reread it, it can be taken not to give that benefit. Not sure whether to edit.

Wizard's Constitution is not a stunt, and should not be used as a comparison in discussions about appropriate stunt benefits.
At the very least, this stunt needs its effects clarified.

Bricoleur only boosts Declarations and Assessments.

If it didn't apply to all of 'making, breaking, and fixing' (ie. the whole of Craftsmanship) then that would probably be enough of a limitation, too.

Sorry, poor wording on my part.  They do not have limiting conditions substantial enough to justify the jump from single trapping to whole (or nearly whole) skill.
Further, upon rereading the 3rd stunt, the benefit given is actually +4 equivalent to 2/3 trappings.

Big Pocking Wrench might be a bit weak, but oh well.

Big Pocking Wrench's problem isn't being 'a bit weak', but rather 'a bit broad', meaning 'too broad'.  To the point of no longer making sense (fixing an integrated circuit with a wrench).

There are roughly 103 stunts in YS. I listed 18 of them in my previous post. And there were more marginal examples that I left out.

This is not a few isolated mistakes. This is the dominant paradigm.

The majority of the material on stunts supports my position here. The examples, the rules text, everything except the list of bullet points that gives guidelines for stunt creation.

The bullet point guidelines ARE rules text.  I would argue that they are the most important part of the rules text, being the most specific.
The beginning of the stunt creation section describes what stunts are capable of doing in very broad terms.  Then YS goes on to explain how trapping adding/moving stunts function.  Then it goes on to explain in slightly more detailed terms how 'trapping extending' stunts function.  Then it lists the effects generally available to such stunts.

[quote author=Sanctaphrax link=topic=29719.msg1381464#msg1381464 date=1334554431Moreover, my position is more sensible from a balance perspective. Not all trappings are created equal, and there are plenty of them that could get a blanket +2 without issue.

PS: 50% is the limit, not the base. I generally aim below that because I know that people will do what they can to use their stunts as much as possible.

As I said previously, I am not immovably set against stunts granting bonuses to more than one trapping, or to the whole of a trapping with no meaningful restrction, only against them doing so with no codified and reasoned explanation of when and how they may do so that does not obsolete significant portions of those benefits already codified.

[Sanctaphrax]

In the absence of a reasonable means to balance this stunt, I see little alternative.

Pity. But that's how it goes sometimes.

The problem I see is not an unusually large bonus, but an unusually variable one.  A character optimized to make best use of this stunt could conceivably bring in effective bonuses as high as +6 on a relatively regular basis.  It is also equally conceivable that a character who does not priororitize athletics but who takes this stunt could reap no benefit whatsoever from using it on a similarly regular basis (as compared to opportunity, not strict frequency).

Yes, the bonus will sometimes be unusually large. And sometimes unusually small. But I cannot imagine how it could be a significant problem in play. Will the game's balance be thrown off by someone who can resist oodles of falling damage? I doubt it.

I will reevaluate my position on this stunt when I see the new wording.

Gotcha.

I can't recall a single time any of the 'canon' performance stunts would have been worthwhile in my time playing this game.  That doesn't mean that I'd advocate substantially increasing their power.

Really? Huh. If I couldn't recall a time when Performance stunts would have been handy, I'd advocate making them stronger. But I can remember quite a few times when they would have been useful.

Going to have to be more specific.

Network Of Informants is limited in the same way as the whole-skill-boosting stunts are.

For a game significantly featuring religious organizations, a religiously affiliated character might benefit from this stunt on the vast majority of their contacts rolls.

Hm. Alright, I'll add a note saying to be careful.

They're generally rare, yes, but only because of their double-edged nature.  I'm wary of any stunt that tries to subvert that nature, particularly ones that do so by citing it as cause to be exempted from the standard guidelines.

They aren't all that double-edged. Most people don't have the Conviction to threaten a wizard. They're rare because most people don't make eye contact with wizards. And these are only sort of outside the standard guidelines. The guidelines do say to increase bonuses for very narrow stunts.

Wizard's Constitution is not a stunt, and should not be used as a comparison in discussions about appropriate stunt benefits.
At the very least, this stunt needs its effects clarified.

Yeah, I'll clarify. But Wizard's Constitution is solid evidence that the effect is no big deal.

If it didn't apply to all of 'making, breaking, and fixing' (ie. the whole of Craftsmanship) then that would probably be enough of a limitation, too.

I simply disagree about the first two Bricolage stunts. Declarations and Assessments is not the biggest part of Craftsmanship, and Bricoleur only boosts ones that have to do with creativity and resourcefulness. As for Skilled Bricoleur, I don't think that not having the proper tools and materials for a project is very common in most games.

Master Bricoleur could use a touch of weakening though. I think reducing the time increment benefit to 1 would be appropriate.

Big Pocking Wrench's problem isn't being 'a bit weak', but rather 'a bit broad', meaning 'too broad'.  To the point of no longer making sense (fixing an integrated circuit with a wrench).

You can't use Big Pocking Wrench on an integrated circuit. You can only use it when you can actually use the wrench.

The bullet point guidelines ARE rules text.  I would argue that they are the most important part of the rules text, being the most specific.
The beginning of the stunt creation section describes what stunts are capable of doing in very broad terms.  Then YS goes on to explain how trapping adding/moving stunts function.  Then it goes on to explain in slightly more detailed terms how 'trapping extending' stunts function.  Then it lists the effects generally available to such stunts.

Moreover, my position is more sensible from a balance perspective. Not all trappings are created equal, and there are plenty of them that could get a blanket +2 without issue.

PS: 50% is the limit, not the base. I generally aim below that because I know that people will do what they can to use their stunts as much as possible.

As I said previously, I am not immovably set against stunts granting bonuses to more than one trapping, or to the whole of a trapping with no meaningful restrction, only against them doing so with no codified and reasoned explanation of when and how they may do so that does not obsolete significant portions of those benefits already codified.

I don't follow. Are you agreeing with me?

[Tedronai]

Soulgazes will not be rare for very long if a character can be sufficiently optimized to abuse them.  At which point any stunts that used the rarity of soulgazes for justification to be excepted from standard limitations would become themselves abusive.  Do you see my concern?

Big Pocking Wrench needs a clarification, then, because that (obviously) was not my interpretation.

As for the rest, I doubt I'll sway you at this point, so I won't bother.

I don't follow. Are you agreeing with me?

I would be fine with the creation and inclusion in lists such as these of stunts that provided bonuses to whole trappings or whole skills if the presenter of such stunts explained logically why that effect was justified for that stunt, and/or if additional guidelines were created to complement the 'bullet point' stunt effects listed in the stunt creation guidelines that made clear when such effects were justified.
As of now, we have some stunts that conform to existing standards, and some that flaunt them.  It is this disparity that I object to.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think you can soulgaze without consent from the gazee. Well, not without a Deceit maneuver or some such thing.

I very much doubt it'll be a problem.

Incidentally, changing it to +1 accuracy +1 stress wouldn't make it meaningfully weaker. It's more or less mechanically identical to +2 accuracy.

Will clarify the wrench stunt.

I don't see much inconsistency in the list. The stunts universally have whatever arbitrary restriction makes them narrow enough to be acceptable. Whether that means that they affect half of one trapping or the entire skill in some scenario is inconsequential.

At least, as I see it.