Refinement

[The Mighty Buzzard]

The one thing that confuses me is the game designer's statements, particularly the one I mentioned above. If the intent was that taking any spellcasting abilities grants you the ability to craft items then why would Fred say that he's not sure that he'd allow a channeler to change their items after they created them?

Because Fred is thinking like a GM there rather than a player.  Thinking about something that has the potential to get silly is usually a good idea.

[Sanctaphrax]

Look, this is not a matter of opinion.

The book doesn't say that you can make items with Evocation.

It implies it pretty heavily, but it also implies the opposite by saying that Crafting is a form of Thaumaturgy.

It says that you get slots, which can be used for X and Y. It doesn't say that you can make X and Y if you couldn't otherwise.

You're making good arguments, but good arguments would not be necessary if there was a statement saying you could make items with Thaumaturgy. Which there isn't.

So please acknowledge that.

PS: As I've said before, templates are not a good way to balance things. That approach turns the rules into a minefield for people not using the canon templates. If you want it to be impossible to take Refinement without other spellcasting powers, make it so. Don't try to be sneaky about it.
PPS: Iago's quote actually says that he would partially allow foci and probably wouldn't allow enchanted items. I raise this not because I think his opinion is particularly important, but because I think that the ambiguous nature of his response shows that looking for certainty in what he wrote is foolish.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Yeah, besides, Iago's usually pretty clear that his opinions are just that and not precedent-setting WoI.

[Anher]

The one thing that confuses me is the game designer's statements, particularly the one I mentioned above. If the intent was that taking any spellcasting abilities grants you the ability to craft items then why would Fred say that he's not sure that he'd allow a channeler to change their items after they created them?

Probably because of this bit here:

Further, if you read the section on Crafting, you will find that it says the following:
"While crafting things like focus items and potions is considered a type of thaumaturgy, it isn’t something that has a very active presence in these game mechanics."

Channeling isn't a form of Thaumaturgy, it's a form of Evocation and crafting things (as stated above) is based on Thaumaturgy. It's like the difference between knowing how to operate something and how to build it and have the necessary materials. sure, I can drive a car and I know the theory behind how it's built and how it operates, but could I build one? Nope.

[Silverblaze]

EDIT: Double Post fail

Sorry.

[Silverblaze]

Refinement as a stretch: if your Gm allows it you can do anything you want.  If you come looking for opinions on a forum, especially this one (where people debate game balance all day long ...yeah thats mainly me:P), you are likely going to get a lot of flak/arguement/negative opinion/rebutle etc.

Refinement for non casters as is: Nope.  Not citing spellcasting as a must was simply an oversight in my opinion.  That or the devs/playtesters would prefer some common sense over munchkining and rules lawyering.  (not pointing any fingers at all)


Question: Not really on topic but similarly inspired by the topic.

Can a player or NPC without a spellcasting high concept or power have a lawbreaker stunt?  The only two this applies to is time travel and outer planar stuff.  Both of which can happen without the player or PC casting the spell to inititiate such actions.  One can be cast into the time stream or planes...one can research the outisde.  Spells are not needed.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Can a player or NPC without a spellcasting high concept or power have a lawbreaker stunt?  The only two this applies to is time travel and outer planar stuff.  Both of which can happen without the player or PC casting the spell to inititiate such actions.  One can be cast into the time stream or planes...one can research the outisde.  Spells are not needed.

In those cases, I don't see why not.  Since neither necessarily require a spell be done by the player, you could allow them to take the +1/+2 to any unquestionably and directly applicable roll.  You'd have to extend this to spellcasters too though or you'd never hear the end of it.

[Silverblaze]

In those cases, I don't see why not.  Since neither necessarily require a spell be done by the player, you could allow them to take the +1/+2 to any unquestionably and directly applicable roll.  You'd have to extend this to spellcasters too though or you'd never hear the end of it.

Kinda what I was thinking.

[Sanctaphrax]

Pretty sure the RAW specifies that only spellcasting rolls are boosted. But that's easily ignored.

[Becq]

Look, this is not a matter of opinion.

The book doesn't say that you can make items with Evocation.

I'm afraid I still disagree with your opinion on what this, given that it is stated as part of the power description for Evocation, etc.  This argument strikes me as exactly the same as the following:
(A) I use my Footwork stunt to use my Fists as defense against his punch.
(B) Sorry, you can't do that.  The rules say Athletics is used for defending.
(A) Yes, but it says right there under Footwork that I can substitue Fists!
(B) Sorry, the rules clearly say that dodging attacks is a function of Athletics.

It implies it pretty heavily, but it also implies the opposite by saying that Crafting is a form of Thaumaturgy.

Yes, for purposes of specializations.

You're making good arguments, but good arguments would not be necessary if there was a statement saying you could make items with Thaumaturgy. Which there isn't.

I disagree again.  It states under the Thaum/Crafting rules that Crafting is governed by use of stunts.  This is different than every other Thaum specialization.

PS: As I've said before, templates are not a good way to balance things. That approach turns the rules into a minefield for people not using the canon templates. If you want it to be impossible to take Refinement without other spellcasting powers, make it so. Don't try to be sneaky about it.

While I think that templates are a good way of packaging power requirements and options that make sense for a given character concept, I'm not opposed to the rest of this comment at all.  That said, it is technically a house rule (though a good one) to declare requirements to Refinement, whereas its not a house rule to insist of vetting of custom templates and ensuring that powers taken fit with template and high concept.  So it depends on your group tolerance for house rules or preferences against them.

PPS: Iago's quote actually says that he would partially allow foci and probably wouldn't allow enchanted items. I raise this not because I think his opinion is particularly important, but because I think that the ambiguous nature of his response shows that looking for certainty in what he wrote is foolish.

Ambiguous?  He states that the rules say that Evocation/Channeling grants focus items, therefore they can have focus items.  I see no ambiguity in that quote whatsoever, and it's basically the same statement I made.

I do find it odd that he later suggests that Enchanted Items are a much more borderline case, since those same rules state (under Evocation/Channeling) that you may swap those focus slots for enchanted item slots.  (Though I agree with his suggested limitation that Enchanted Items chosen must fit within the powers known, which would nix the 'standard' Crafter build completely.)

[Vairelome]

(Though I agree with his suggested limitation that Enchanted Items chosen must fit within the powers known, which would nix the 'standard' Crafter build completely.)

The part in bold is wrong.  Ritual grants access to a single subtype of Thaumaturgy.  Crafting is one of the "functional" subtypes of Thaumaturgy, as opposed to being one of the "thematic" subtypes, like Ectomancy.  Ritual based on a thematic subtype gains access to all functional areas of Thaumaturgy, but is restricted to the specified theme.  Ritual based on a functional subtype gains access to all thematic areas of Thaumaturgy, but is restricted to the specified function.  Ritual: Crafting therefore permits the creation of any enchanted item or potion based off any conceivable Thaumaturgical theme, which is "limited" by your imagination and nothing else.

[Silverblaze]

Pretty sure the RAW specifies that only spellcasting rolls are boosted. But that's easily ignored.

You're quite correct.  That was/is part of my dillemna.

I just need to figure a way to make the lawbreaker power apply to a noncaster in some fashion...otherwise the refresh is completely wasted.  I know lawbreaking is bad, but if a non caster can get it the non caster should in some small ways be able to benefit from it also.

[Sanctaphrax]

Hm...

You know what?

I'm no longer willing to continue this. I stand by everything I said, but I no longer have the energy to keep up the argument.

Maybe it's because I have a cold, I dunno.

Sorry if this is disappointing to anyone.

Becq, I guess this means you win, insofar as winning is meaningful.

[Silverblaze]

Odd to think that you would get foci slots and therefore enchanted item slots with evocation, if you can't make them....but also seems to make thaumaturgy less important.

You fine folks can do as you please, but evocation is described as  brute force magic.  Thaumaturgy is more or less "everything else".  If it were my game I'd say powering enchanted items or recharging them is possible with just evocation, but to build the enchanted item...I'd require someone with ritual, thaum, or something similar to make said item.  Focus items aren't so much magical items as things that help you focus your energies.  maybe they are charged with some magical energy to help, but it has no otehr effect...therefore I maintain the evocation can create those and those alone.

Such is just my take on it.