Why are zombies a violation of the fifth law ?

[Guldor]

@Umbralux: Yes of course this would be the ideal solution, if there wouldnīt be a lot of grey areas. From my point of view it isnīt a clear choice, neither for the player nor the GM. I agree that some dice rolls, which decide if you are morally rotten or not are not very elegant. My houserule was more or less some kind of brainstorming. It bothers me a little bit that there is no inbetween for lawbreaking.

For example:

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When Harry makes a soulgaze with Molly after he finds out that she has brainwashed her drug addicted friends, he sees that she is not totally stained and can be resued

I would like to simulate this rulewise: There are things that are not really lawbreaking according to the letter of the law, but the should have a small impact on the soul of the wizard.

@Richard Chilton: Yes the white council doesnīt bother. But how cruel is it to force a feeling, intelligent being to fullfill you every wish. When you use magic for this, it should be some kind of "lesser lawbreaking", donīt you think?

[Richard_Chilton]

@Richard Chilton: Yes the white council doesnīt bother. But how cruel is it to force a feeling, intelligent being to fullfill you every wish. When you use magic for this, it should be some kind of "lesser lawbreaking", donīt you think?

But Ghosts, as the White Council knows them, aren't "feeling, intelligent being" but echoes of people who were feeling, intelligent being.

There's a huge difference there.

Richard

[sinker]

Example 2: Wizard B is forcing a ghost to beat up an enemy of him. Since the ghost has no soul itīs not really a lawbreaking, but you also enthrall it and perhaps a part of the spell is using a tiny bit of death magic. As a GM I would state that he is about to walk a darker path and therefore his soul maybe stained a little bit. To simulate this in game terms: The GM rolls an attack with a  desired strength. Lets say the GM thinks this is a minor staining and he sets a strength of 4. He rolls a 2 and therefore the attack has got as power of 6. The wizard may use his conviction (because he might believe it was necessary to send the ghost and for the greater good and so on) and his roll results in a 4. Therefore he got two shifts form the attack. This shifts are used to open up the stress track necromancy (or vice versa for another not quite lawbreaking). Perhaps it could be of the same length as the mental stress track, but it wonīt clear as fast. Maybe you may roll conviction against stress +2 or something to remove one point of stress every minor milestone. When the stress track is full you get your lawbreaking stunt.

Of note this whole process could be more easily modeled with an attack against the mental stress track. If consequences are inflicted then they would have a lawbreaking theme, and could be invoked/compelled as such.

As for

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Molly

she's a lawbreaker, period. So is Harry for that matter. You can have the Lawbreaker power and not be completely crazy, though most of the books point out that it's difficult. It is a constant struggle for them both.

As for ghosts Richard's right as far as the white council's concerned. Ghosts are non-thinking, non-sentient beings. Recent events might imply otherwise (I'm talking about some of the things encountered, not the special circumstances surrounding the whole thing), but we still can't be sure.

[Guldor]

First on: Thank you all for making productive comments and not yelling around, that my point of view is bullshit :-)

@Richard: Of course ghosts donīt have a soul. From a certain point of view you could argue the have no real feelings are not intelligent. I donīt want to argue about one point: Ghosts have got no soul (perhaps some former musicians...sorry for the joke :-)). But they are imprints of the soul of a former living being at the timepoint of the death of this being. The canīt really evolve, but they (only my idea about it) have feelings. The feelings of the person, who died. Perhaps they simulate the feelings, but they donīt see it this way themselves. For them (and in my opinion ghost must have some kind of self awareness to act like they do in the books) their feelings and thinking is real. And if itīs only a really really good simulation: Where is the difference for the person who treats them like his personal slaves. I know I get kind of philosophic here but for all the Trekkies out there: Thin about Data. His feelings are some kind of simulated but are they therefore not true?

@sinker: Seems so be a good idea to attack mentally amd have some kind of psychic consequence. Will work for me :-)

[Richard_Chilton]

First on: Thank you all for making productive comments and not yelling around, that my point of view is bullshit :-)

You're welcome - we're really a polite bunch here.  That, and if anyone did cry "bullshit" then he'd better have a good argument to back up his point (and be prepared to change his remarks to something less insulting).

Looking around at some of the other forums, this one seems to need less moderation that some of the others - but if things were to get out of hand I'm sure that the mods would step in.  The mods on this board - I've been on countless boards (starting with BBSes) and the mods here are among the best I've ever seen.

Richard

[Guldor]

@Richard: Yes youīre totally right about this forum. In german forums you normally have the same problems with people, who threat you like crap. Some people seem to think they donīt have to be polite, when they are more or less anonymous. This reflects a bad light on those people: They are only polite, if it may reprisals if they arenīt. Here nearly all posters are friendly, constructive and helpful.

So thank you all guys for the discussion. I now have some new points of view and I am sure I and the ectomancer player will work something out regarding the fifth law.