A Fallen scorned (GS spoilers)

[Mira]

I remember there being communication on some level, though, because Harry found it difficult to bury the coin due to Lasciel's influence.  I'd have to re-read the scene to sort it all out.

  Actually if you read the end of Death Masks, Harry had no trouble at all burying the coin.  The coin did whisper softly, "Harry," but Harry sang songs to himself to counter it as he chipped away the concrete to dig the hole to bury it, then he put a magic ring around it and the whispering was cut off.. However it wasn't as effective as Harry thought it would be, because in Dead Beat, Lasciel had broken through as Shelia..

[TheCuriousFan]

Lasciel had broken through as Shelia..

It was Lasciel's shadow creating the Shiela illusion, not Lasciel herself.

[Lothy]

I have to say OP, this is an excellent piece of deductive work. The picture you've assembled is awesome, and I'm pretty much convinced that this is what's going on. it makes perfect sense. Good job!

[stonebasher]

A thought, what are the odds that Nicodemus has been focusing on getting coins back since Death Masks? He was down to having Diedre as the only Denarian following him, what are the odds he got Lasciel's coin back in the time between White Night and Turn Coat?

     Actually, that may not be completely true.  With cassius, it was the mortal body that Nic thought was weak, not the fallen inside the coin.  If Nic looted any coins from the church (besides Laschiels,) he could have Ursiel and the other (I don't remember the name of Cassius' fallen right now) with him next time.

[TheCuriousFan]

With cassius, it was the mortal body that Nic thought was weak, not the fallen inside the coin.

Where did I say that Nicodemus thought Saluriel (Cassius' Fallen) was weak?

he could have Ursiel and the other (I don't remember the name of Cassius' fallen right now) with him next time.

Don't forget the other 2 coins held by the church in Death Masks, he'll probably have them as well (Nicodemus supposedly runs around with 6 Fallen including himself, we've seen 4).

[Vairelome]

The relevant bits from DM, from the last three pages of the book (underline added by me, other emphasis from the original text):

I panicked abruptly and lunged out ahead of him, slapping my hand down over a polished silver coin before the child could squat down to pick it up.  I felt a prickling jolt shoot up my arm, and had the sudden, intangible impression that someone nearby was waking up from a nap and stretching.
...
I left the cookout without saying good-bye, and headed home.  I heard something the whole time, something whispering almost inaudibly.  I drowned it out with loud and off-key singing, and got to work.

Ten hours later, I put down the excavating pick and glowered at the two-foot hole I had chipped in my lab's concrete floor.  The whispering in my head had segued into "Sympathy for the Devil" by the Stones.

"Harry," whispered a gentle voice.

I dropped the coin into the hole.  I slipped a steel ring about three inches across around it.  I muttered to myself and willed energy into the ring.  The whispering abruptly cut off.

The underlined phrasing is consistent with the description of the examples Salacia gave in the original post.  "whispered a quiet voice in my head," "a voice somewhere within the storm of my chest whispered," "whispered a voice in the back of my head," and "said the little sane voice in my head" all have some combination of the specific phrases "whisper[ed/ing]," "voice," and "in my head."  In each case, the content of the whisper is something that would induce despair or self-destructive action on Harry's part, consistent with the eventual effect of the whispering shadow's seven words.

There is reason to think this is not an accident.  We know that JB's writing style uses "tags," or specific, repeated phrases linked to a given character that are meant to evoke the memory of that character.  In this case, the scene in DM would be setting up a tag of "anonymous whispering voice in Harry's head" as a marker of Lasciel's influence.  This wouldn't mean that every whisper Harry hears would be Lasciel, but in order for the tag system to work unambiguously, other whispers would have to be linked to a specified not-Lasciel speaker.  So phrases like "I said to myself" would not be at all the same thing, because that indicates a conversation that was purely internal to Harry.

Here's what would disprove, or at least weaken, the theory: an example of an anonymous whispering voice in Harry's head that is later clearly established to be someone other than Lasciel.  "Hush, now" is a possibility (the second whisper at the very end of Changes), because that's often believed to be Mab, but in the context revealed later in GS, it's possible that it was Lasciel--either explanation makes sense, though the meaning would be very different.

what are the odds he got Lasciel's coin back in the time between White Night and Turn Coat?

It would definitely be the sort of thing Nicodemus has done before, though the timing for Lasciel's coin would have to be "after Small Favor" not just "after White Night."  Remember, at the end of SmF, it comes as a huge shock to Nicodemus that Lasciel's shadow doesn't take over Harry's body, and I'd expect that he'd know this if he had already recovered Lasciel's coin.  I think that Harry's reveal at the end of SmF was what caused Nicodemus to seek out and recover Lasciel's coin.  He may well have been hunting other coins before then.

[Mira]

The underlined phrasing is consistent with the description of the examples Salacia gave in the original post.  "whispered a quiet voice in my head," "a voice somewhere within the storm of my chest whispered," "whispered a voice in the back of my head," and "said the little sane voice in my head" all have some combination of the specific phrases "whisper[ed/ing]," "voice," and "in my head."  In each case, the content of the whisper is something that would induce despair or self-destructive action on Harry's part, consistent with the eventual effect of the whispering shadow's seven words.

  Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin.  If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment.. On the contrary, we see the character and strength with in Harry that ultimately lead to his rejection of it even in the face of madness or death in White Night. 

That isn't to say the Lasciel didn't show up to whisper those seven words to Harry in Changes, or that she didn't know the right buttons to push in her the intended victim of her revenge..  However it was outside influences that brought Harry to this vulnerable state, not any continued whispering of Lasciel.  Harry fought against the odds as he always does, trying to get a coalition together to try and save his little girl, it wasn't till he was paralyzed with a severed spinal cord, on a back board in Father Forthill's back room with no more options left, that he gave into despair, that is when evil pounced as evil always does, "and it is all your fault..."   

The words were malevolent, with no other intention than to destroy Harry, to drive him to suicide.  The past influences of Lasciel or her shadow was to manipulate Harry into accepting the coin, to do her will to do evil to others not himself.  Harry had thrown that off he had rejected her and she was pissed.  It may be that just because the coins are taken out of circulation, it doesn't mean the fallen trapped within is still without some ability independent of it. 

 Notice also that when Uriel showed the playback, the image was beside Harry whispering, if it came from inside his head, I do not think he could have seen anything, nor do I think if Lasciel had remain an influence at all, that Uriel would either have appeared to Harry or give him Soul Fire. 

[stonebasher]

  Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin.  If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment..

     Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry?  Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him.  The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait. 

[Vairelome]

Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin.  If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment.. On the contrary, we see the character and strength with in Harry that ultimately lead to his rejection of it even in the face of madness or death in White Night. 

I should have said, "in each of the examples Salacia quotes."  Of course Lasciel wasn't trying to induce despair or (directly) self-destructive action in the section I quoted from DM.  She didn't have the motive to do so yet.  I quoted the section from DM to lay out the argument that JB was setting up a tag to identify Lasciel's influence later in the series, and then showed how the sections Salacia quoted from TC and Changes were consistent with that tag.  Salacia's four quotes were also consistent with each other by evident motivation, which would tend to support the conclusion that they were from the same source, as they happened reasonably near each other in time (one from TC, the others from Changes).

However it was outside influences that brought Harry to this vulnerable state, not any continued whispering of Lasciel.

How do you know this?  We've presented a reasonably compelling argument that Lasciel had in fact been whispering to Harry over a period of time before he broke his back.  There were certainly several other large factors that contributed to Harry's very painful overall situation, but I don't see why you're assuming that Lasciel's whisper was a one-time event when there is evidence to the contrary.

Notice also that when Uriel showed the playback, the image was beside Harry whispering, if it came from inside his head, I do not think he could have seen anything, nor do I think if Lasciel had remain an influence at all, that Uriel would either have appeared to Harry or give him Soul Fire. 

It sounds like you are making an argument here that Lasciel wasn't the whispering shadow.  If that's your argument, and if you're right, where did Lasciel appear in GS?

[Mira]

     Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry?  Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him.  The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait.

  The point is she failed.  Her shadow fell in love with Harry and took his side and helped him..  The moment Lasciel's shadow truly becomes Lash, not just Harry's nickname for her, she says pointedly, softly, shaking her head, "She doesn't deserve you.."  So not just Harry scorned Lasciel, but her own shadow did.  Also remember what distressed Lasciel/Lash so much was when her host Harry died, she died.. So the fallen angel's revenge wasn't just on Harry it was on her shadow, Lash as well, both scorned her.

How do you know this?  We've presented a reasonably compelling argument that Lasciel had in fact been whispering to Harry over a period of time before he broke his back.  There were certainly several other large factors that contributed to Harry's very painful overall situation, but I don't see why you're assuming that Lasciel's whisper was a one-time event when there is evidence to the contrary.

No, we have no facts, it is never said that it was, those are merely guesses.  Since Lasciel's shadow had been doing all of the whispering and she got transformed back in White Night, she also got transformed into Lash by her love for Harry.  She became independent of Lasciel, there is evidence shortly after in White Night when she says "all that I can my host..." after Harry plays and just before he digs up the coin and gives to to Father Forthill, that Lash whispered to Harry.  That wasn't Lasciel, we also have the WOJ if you believe him that the only appearance of Lasciel after that was in Changes.

.

It sounds like you are making an argument here that Lasciel wasn't the whispering shadow.  If that's your argument, and if you're right, where did Lasciel appear in GS?

Oh Lasciel did appear in Changes and was the whispering shadow we see in GS.  My argument is she is not the one who is whispering anything to Harry in Turn Coat.. There is no evidence of it.

     Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry?  Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him.  The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait. 

  Except back in Death Masks through to that point in White Night, she was trying to seduce Harry to take up the coin.. He didn't, in the cave in White Night, her shadow tried desperately to get Harry to take up the coin, to save both their lives.  Harry refused.. Then Lasciel becoming Lash, says " she doesn't deserve you."  At that moment the fallen angel Lasciel became the woman scorned.  Not just by Harry, but by her own shadow because of Harry.  At that point she wanted them both dead.  And yeah, revenge is a dish best served cold.. She waited, till Harry reached his lowest point, along with facts he could not argue against.. 1] he was helpless. 2] He was little Maggie's father, while how she got into trouble maybe wasn't his fault, the fact that she was in the world, was.  "And it is all your fault.."  Those are not the words of seduction, those are the words of revenge. 

[PirateJack]

  The point is she failed.  Her shadow fell in love with Harry and took his side and helped him..  The moment Lasciel's shadow truly becomes Lash, not just Harry's nickname for her, she says pointedly, softly, shaking her head, "She doesn't deserve you.."  So not just Harry scorned Lasciel, but her own shadow did.  Also remember what distressed Lasciel/Lash so much was when her host Harry died, she died.. So the fallen angel's revenge wasn't just on Harry it was on her shadow, Lash as well, both scorned her.

All the examples of whispering Vairelome posted happen after White Night. After Lash has sacrificed herself. After Lasciel's coin was dug up from its place in Harry's basement. Lasciel found out what had happened either at the moment the circle was broken (since Lash is still there she'd have had a link, albeit a weak one) or after she was recovered by Nicodemus (if she was).

No, we have no facts, it is never said that it was, those are merely guesses.  Since Lasciel's shadow had been doing all of the whispering and she got transformed back in White Night, she also got transformed into Lash by her love for Harry.  She became independent of Lasciel, there is evidence shortly after in White Night when she says "all that I can my host..." after Harry plays and just before he digs up the coin and gives to to Father Forthill, that Lash whispered to Harry.  That wasn't Lasciel, we also have the WOJ if you believe him that the only appearance of Lasciel after that was in Changes.

It's not being said that Lash was the one doing the whispering. We're saying that after Lasciel's coin was unburied she became the one to whisper in Harry's ear the depressing thoughts that have already been posted.

Oh Lasciel did appear in Changes and was the whispering shadow we see in GS.  My argument is she is not the one who is whispering anything to Harry in Turn Coat.. There is no evidence of it.

There are educated guesses. The series isn't finished so we can't look back with hindsight, only post our theories from the evidence we have in the released books. This seems like a semi-solid theory to me with decent evidence to back it up.

Except back in Death Masks through to that point in White Night, she was trying to seduce Harry to take up the coin.. He didn't, in the cave in White Night, her shadow tried desperately to get Harry to take up the coin, to save both their lives.  Harry refused.. Then Lasciel becoming Lash, says " she doesn't deserve you."  At that moment the fallen angel Lasciel became the woman scorned.  Not just by Harry, but by her own shadow because of Harry.  At that point she wanted them both dead.  And yeah, revenge is a dish best served cold.. She waited, till Harry reached his lowest point, along with facts he could not argue against.. 1] he was helpless. 2] He was little Maggie's father, while how she got into trouble maybe wasn't his fault, the fact that she was in the world, was.  "And it is all your fault.."  Those are not the words of seduction, those are the words of revenge.

True enough, we're just arguing that Lasciel possibly whispered more than once. Think of it as following a marked path to a river, rather than hoping to find an oasis. Chances are Harry would have found himself at the lowest point he could at some point, and Lasciel would be there, but it's also true that continued whispering would make him more likely to take the course of action that would result in his death. Besides, it fits Lasciel's MO to give subtle nudges every so often, rather than one big strike.

[jimmercubed]

I apologize if this point has been brought up before, but this is a long thread.

I don't see why Lasciel would want to destroy Harry in the first place. She's the Web Weaver, the Deceiver, she's been around since the dawn of time. She isn't human, in any sense of the word. All that Harry has done so far is proven himself to be more powerful than any other host that she has ever dealt with. Keep in mind the sense of scope we're talking about here: Since the dawn of time, Harry is the only one to have not taken up the coin already.

Harry is unique, to her. Not in the human sense of the word, where everyone's a special snowflake or whatever, but truly unique, in the I've-been-alive-since-the-dawn-of-time-and-you're-the-only-one sense of the word. Why would Lasciel go for the short-term vindication of destroying someone so truly special? In the sense of scope that she plays in, why waste what is such a truly epic resource?

Tl;Dr: Lasciel plays long term. Why settle for a short-term, destructive goal?

[Paladino]

Tl;Dr: Lasciel plays long term. Why settle for a short-term, destructive goal?

Hell hath no fury for scorned woman?? They dont tend to be pratical in these situations, especially since as Mira pointed, she is probally also furious with Lash.

[knnn]

So two thoughts:

-- Lasciel, being a cosmic being and all, just she know that Uriel can intervene if she whispers those 7 words?  Why doesn't she take into consideration that Harry's death won't take?  Or maybe she *did* take it into account...

-- What do you guys think of Lasciel's coin being stored at the Carpenters?  I mean, it's apparently a more secure place to store Maggie Jr.  than any other place in whole with the angel guards and Mouse and all.

[Vairelome]

Tl;Dr: Lasciel plays long term. Why settle for a short-term, destructive goal?

What Paladino said, with the added point that the title of this thread comes from the following WOJ concerning Lasciel's current motivations:

2009 Chicago signing:

Q:  Will we see Lash or Lasciel again?
A:  Lasciel’s story is not over.  And keep in mind what’s said about ‘a woman scorned.’  Also keep in mind that Lasciel is NOT Lash; Lasciel did not reabsorb the entity that Harry actually changed. (Yes, he use those words “that Harry actually changed.”)

JB is referring to the proverb, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."  The clear implication is that Lasciel has discovered that her shadow has failed in its mission--to get Harry to claim Lasciel's coin--and is furious at Harry's rejection of her.  IF she is aware that her shadow not only failed, but also switched teams and is not "dead," then Mira is right in that Lasciel would be furious at Lash as well as Harry.  (There's a chance that Lasciel was told that her shadow had been somehow destroyed, and has not yet found out otherwise.  Certainly, once she discovers the truth about Lash, Lash will be right at the top of Lasciel's hit list.)

-- Lasciel, being a cosmic being and all, just she know that Uriel can intervene if she whispers those 7 words?  Why doesn't she take into consideration that Harry's death won't take?  Or maybe she *did* take it into account...

Lasciel is described as a temptress, a webweaver, a deceiver of great subtlety.  However, according to the author, she is now in a state of fury, and furious people tend not to be cautious, even if they are normally so.  They tend to disregard reasons for not smashing whatever it is that they are furious at.  In this case, Lasciel probably did not consider the downsides--Harry Dresden dared to reject her, and for that he must die.  Her tendency to subtlety and manipulation came through in the manner that she engineered his death, which was to force him into committing "suicide."

-- What do you guys think of Lasciel's coin being stored at the Carpenters?  I mean, it's apparently a more secure place to store Maggie Jr.  than any other place in whole with the angel guards and Mouse and all.

Well, the daycare center above the police station is a very safe place to keep your kids, but that doesn't mean you'd want to store nuclear waste in the same building.