A Fallen scorned (GS spoilers)

[Sydna]

I believe one of the consequences of Lasciel being the whispering shadow is that her coin must not be locked away behind a warding circle.  It's at least strongly suggested that one of the effects of Lasciel's coin being buried in the concrete floor of Harry's lab was that Lash could diverge in personality and motivation from Lasciel.  If Lasciel had been able to check up on the process while still being locked in two circles and buried, I don't think Harry could have had as strong an influence over time on Lash as he clearly did.

The coin was dug up at the end of White Night and given to Father Forthill.

[Cozarkian]

If Lasciel is really miffed at this upstart mortal who thinks he can not only defy her, but can actually turn her shadow away from her, then she is going to want to make him suffer for a good long time.

Not only does the upstart think he can defy her, he did. Harry might be the first person to ever cast off the shadow of a Fallen and he is almost certainly the first to ever cast off Lasciel's shadow and to reject the coin. Lasciel wants to nullify that victory as soon as possible.

Lasciel is probably uncertain how many more opportunities she will have to influence Harry and terrified that Harry might outmaneuver her again. I don't think Lasciel would risk the consequences of hatching long-run plans, she would look for the earliest and best opportunity to claim victory. Manipulating his suicide was probably the safest plan she could hatch to restore her pride; she can't risk failure a second time.

[Vairelome]

The coin was dug up at the end of White Night and given to Father Forthill.

Right, but at some point, the coin went from "effectively warded" in Harry's basement (whatever "effective" means, it permitted the creation of Lash as a separate entity) to "not effectively warded" wherever it is right now.  I don't think that was part of Harry's/Father Forthill's plan.

At some point, a mistake was made, allowing Lasciel to influence Harry in a way she wasn't capable of while buried in Harry's basement.  The first possibility is that Father Forthill's methodology was flawed, and whatever precautions he took just weren't sufficient--Lasciel broke herself out.  The second possibility is that somehow, at some point, Father Forthill's methodology was compromised, and Lasciel was able to affect Harry again, apparently without Father Forthill knowing of this security failure--someone else broke Lasciel out.  (The third possibility is that Father Forthill is actually a bad guy; I don't think this is true, but I'll list it for completeness.)

Oh, regarding Lasciel's motivations and how that would affect her choices regarding Harry, note the (very appropriate) title of this thread.  Lasciel may be a subtle temptress normally, but the implications of the relevant WoJ is that she is currently motivated by FURY.  Forcing Harry into what he thinks is suicide fits that combination pretty well, in my opinion.

[Gman]

Right, but at some point, the coin went from "effectively warded" in Harry's basement (whatever "effective" means, it permitted the creation of Lash as a separate entity) to "not effectively warded" wherever it is right now.  I don't think that was part of Harry's/Father Forthill's plan.

At some point, a mistake was made, allowing Lasciel to influence Harry in a way she wasn't capable of while buried in Harry's basement.  The first possibility is that Father Forthill's methodology was flawed, and whatever precautions he took just weren't sufficient--Lasciel broke herself out.  The second possibility is that somehow, at some point, Father Forthill's methodology was compromised, and Lasciel was able to affect Harry again, apparently without Father Forthill knowing of this security failure--someone else broke Lasciel out.  (The third possibility is that Father Forthill is actually a bad guy; I don't think this is true, but I'll list it for completeness.)

Oh, regarding Lasciel's motivations and how that would affect her choices regarding Harry, note the (very appropriate) title of this thread.  Lasciel may be a subtle temptress normally, but the implications of the relevant WoJ is that she is currently motivated by FURY.  Forcing Harry into what he thinks is suicide fits that combination pretty well, in my opinion.

I think shadow Lash seperated from Lasiel before Harry had a chance to ward the coin. I strongly doubt Forthill is a bad guy. He had an Angel Of Death vouch for him and willing to protect his Soul if he died to make sure he went upstairs. Nick said they recover about half the coins from the church, so either so church guards get corrupted or Nick and company send people in to get them back.

[Vairelome]

I think shadow Lash seperated from Lasiel before Harry had a chance to ward the coin.

Yes, obviously.  My point was different:  we can also infer that Harry's warding of the coin was effective at keeping Lasciel from influencing him directly while the coin was buried in his basement.  If Lasciel had been able to whisper in his ear whenever she wanted to during that period, I think it's not at all likely the Lash-personality would have been able to diverge at all.  Since Lash clearly became something other than merely Lasciel's proxy, I think we should draw the conclusion that Lasciel was not supervising during this time.

Assuming that Lasciel was the whispering shadow, clearly something changed about Lasciel's containment that permitted her to reach out of the coin and whisper to Harry.  We know that Harry dug up the coin and gave it to Father Forthill for safekeeping.  It seems pretty likely that the containment failure occurred after that--my question is when, how, and who was responsible for un-blocking Lasciel's ability to communicate with Harry.

If the answer turns out to be that Nicodemus walked into St. Mary's and walked out with Lasciel's coin, and has had it for some time, I think that would be a pretty big deal, don't you?

[Gman]

Yes, obviously.  My point was different:  we can also infer that Harry's warding of the coin was effective at keeping Lasciel from influencing him directly while the coin was buried in his basement.  If Lasciel had been able to whisper in his ear whenever she wanted to during that period, I think it's not at all likely the Lash-personality would have been able to diverge at all.  Since Lash clearly became something other than merely Lasciel's proxy, I think we should draw the conclusion that Lasciel was not supervising during this time.

Assuming that Lasciel was the whispering shadow, clearly something changed about Lasciel's containment that permitted her to reach out of the coin and whisper to Harry.  We know that Harry dug up the coin and gave it to Father Forthill for safekeeping.  It seems pretty likely that the containment failure occurred after that--my question is when, how, and who was responsible for un-blocking Lasciel's ability to communicate with Harry.

If the answer turns out to be that Nicodemus walked into St. Mary's and walked out with Lasciel's coin, and has had it for some time, I think that would be a pretty big deal, don't you?

Who said the coin was at St. Mary's? Would you want a really evil, dangerous and powerful coin being where lots of innocent people go to church and pray or would you put it in a hidden stronghold? Nick and company has family retainers that are mortal and serve him. A group of them could have found out where the coin is hidden and gotten it or hired a groups of mercenaries or monsters to get it. It is also possible the church containment of the coins is not so good and a guard was corrupted. It could be as simple as they see who is a guard. Capture that guard's loved ones and offer a trade. We don't know.

[Ferd]

I find it interesting that everyone assumes that lash is gone.  As far as I can tell all we have to base this on is HARRY'S thoughts that she is no longer there. Are there any outside confirming factors that she is no longer in his head and didn't use the "psychic bullet" as a ploy to retreat further into his mind and begin a second stage of temptation.  For that matter, why are you assuming that there even WAS a convergence between Lash (the shadow) and Lasciel (the fallen)? There is probably a good reason that she is known as a temptress and subtlety is her strong suit.
My counter is this: Lash is a controlled construct of Lasciel that was implemented specifically to seem to come to the "good" side altering Dresdens ability to differentiate between "good" and "evil". Lash's "conversion" was a staged event specifically targeted to soften him up. Now going into the second phase of a premeditated plan of conversion, having already offered him the carrot of a "Nice" fallen angel, she is using the stick of guilt and self-doubt to goad him into acts that he might not go along with otherwise.
If you allow that Lasciel is one smart cookie, as was stated, then why is it not beyond her to manipulate him at a distance while at the same time giving him a false sense of triumph that he "beat" a fallen angel. This just serves to give her a stronger point of attack using surprise should she ever actually decide to lock him down as Nicodemus ordered her to, that option is still on the table imho, but it will wait until the time is right for Lasciel to benefit the most from it, not another fallen angel.

[TheCuriousFan]

everyone assumes that lash is gone. 

We don't, we have WoJ she is still alive and appeared in Ghost Story.

Lash's "conversion" was a staged event specifically targeted to soften him up.

We have WoJ Harry changed her.

[Mercutio]

Lash, like Polka, will never die (unless Jim kills her )

I also don't think he would have been awarded Soulfire for getting suckered by a Fallens shadow.

[KevinSig]

For all we know Lasciel's coin may still be in St. Mary's.  It may not have been that much of a distance for Lasciel to send out her shadow to Harry.  We really don't know.  Besides that, we know the denarians can have influence here on earth beyond their coin via WoJ.

Actually, we have WOJ, that the coin is *NOT* at St Mary's anymore...

“3.) Where are the coins kept? Does Father Forthill keep them at St. Mary’s or are they sent to the Vatican?”

Neither.

- Source

This, and the fact that I'd read a older WOJ quote that has Jim, actually stumbling over the distinction between Lash & Lashiel, I wasn't certain if the quote wasn't mangled (since I only hear 2nd hand vague indications).  This thread was the first time I ran into the actual quote.

[Vairelome]

What I've been trying to get at is that the Lasciel-as-whispering-shadow theory (which I think is true) has consequences as far as the plot goes.

1)  It means that Lasciel's coin is not in a secure location right now--middle of Changes through the end of GS.
2)  If Salacia's reasoning is correct, and I found it quite convincing, Lasciel's coin hasn't been in a secure location for some time--since TC.
3)  As best we can tell, neither Harry nor Father Forthill know this is the case!  They think that wherever Father Forthill put the coin is still secure.

So the question is, did Father Forthill merely fail to ward the coin sufficiently (doubtful, given his position as KotC support), or has someone stolen the coin or compromised the wards such that Lasciel can now influence Harry?  And if so, who did it?

By the way, if Salacia is right that "Because you need your brother to be all right" was the first whisper from Lasciel, that would support a Nicodemus-stole-Lasciel's-coin theory sometime between the end of SmF and the middle of TC.  Remember, Nicodemus finds out that the Denarian hole card of Lasciel's shadow in Harry's brain doesn't work at the end of SmF.  Since Nicodemus is terrified of Harry (WoJ) and his Lasciel-plot has clearly gone awry, he'd be very motivated to recover the coin and we know he has extensive experience in recovering coins from Church custody.

That doesn't mean that Nicodemus/Anduriel would know about Lasciel's revenge plot against Harry.  At the end of SmF, Harry told Nicodemus, "Lasciel's shadow doesn't live here anymore."  We find out later that Harry was wrong about this, but it was what Harry believed at the time, and I'm quite sure Nicodemus was able to note Harry's sincerity.  I think it's pretty likely that if Harry actually had found a way to permanently remove Lasciel's shadow, that would have the effect of breaking his connection to Lasciel's coin, possibly by severing the principle of contagion permitting Lasciel's whispering communication.  If Nicodemus compromised Church security (...again...) and stole the coin, Lasciel may well have decided not to tell Nicodemus that her line of communication with Harry was back open--we're told that Lasciel and Anduriel generally don't work together.

[TheCuriousFan]

3)  As best we can tell, neither Harry nor Father Forthill know this is the case!  They think that wherever Father Forthill put the coin is still secure.

Considering that the church thought Lasciel's coin was in a monastery in Chile when Nicodemus offered it to Harry, I would say that it is quite possible that Nicodemus stole it again while no one was looking and gave it to someone else.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Considering that the church thought Lasciel's coin was in a monastery in Chile when Nicodemus offered it to Harry, I would say that it is quite possible that Nicodemus stole it again while no one was looking and gave it to someone else.

Don't you get the feeling that at some point Harry is going to have a conversation with Lasciel, I mean Lasciel and whatever poor fool took up her coin?

[Vairelome]

Don't you get the feeling that at some point Harry is going to have a conversation with Lasciel, I mean Lasciel and whatever poor fool took up her coin?

This assumes that Lasciel has bound another host.  I don't think Lasciel can do that and still be able to whisper to Harry, though that's a pure guess on my part.  Assuming Lasciel is the whispering shadow, that would mean she still had a whisper-link connection to Harry midway through Changes.

1)  If Lasciel can only form a connection to one host/potential host at a time:
1a)  Lasciel might have bound another host after forcing Harry to commit "suicide," and no longer maintains a whisper-link to Harry.
1b)  Lasciel might still be bound only to Harry.
2)  If Lasciel can form a connection to multiple hosts/potential hosts at a time:
2a)  Lasciel might have bound another host before whispering to Harry.
2b)  Lasciel might have bound another host after whispering to Harry, and still has a whisper-link to Harry.

We don't have enough information to know which of the above is the case.  I think 1) is more likely to be true than 2), but I don't recall any specific text/WoJ evidence for or against it.  I also think 1b) is specifically the current case, but again, I don't know of evidence either way.

[TheCuriousFan]

I don't think Lasciel can do that and still be able to whisper to Harry

We have WoJ they can whisper to people other than their host if they have a host, it also says their range in doing so is limited to earth only.

Don't you get the feeling that at some point Harry is going to have a conversation with Lasciel,

Probably, there'll probably also be a Harry and Lash vs. Lasciel and her new host fight.