DFRPG and FATE

[heathd666]

Thanks for the replies and the examples, I didnt know about the

 http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/

so I have a feeling I will be there lurking in the shadows.
@ Taran, I do plan on trying it and probably running through one of the casefiles for reference.
@ ARedthorn my only experience with FATE or Fudge is with DFRPG so I have no idea what is causing my confusion
@ Watson Yeah I understand those parts about I guess Mooks (a Savage Worlds name) having not as much of an impact on the story as Wildcards (another Savage Worlds term)
@ sinker yeah I was trying to find a game to just mayby watch for a session or two but have not found any going on here in Indianapolis
@ Sanctaphrax I checked out those examples and although they equations they went through didnt make a whole lot of sense to me I am guessing I need to read the rules a bit more. Im guessing the minor, mild, major consequences are in the book I just need to re read em a bit. I didnt really understand some of the stress box stuff becouse things like putting the X through the middle circle instead of the first one but I am guessing I will pick it up more later.
@ TheMouse and Silverblaze yeap I am figuring it out the Agility plus Attribute thing from OWoD and the similarities with DFRPG
@ The Mighty Buzzard The use of Declarations, Aspects, and Maneuvers are going to take some getting use to
The Gm would describe a darkwarehouse with lots of boxes etc.
Declarations are use you spend a Fate point to say I am using the Dark aspect of the warehouse to add +2 to your stealth role
But then that leaves aspects and thats kinda what I thought Declarations are.
Stunts would be something like Karin Murphys thing with 2 guns
@ zenten I am definitly going to give it a try but I am not sure how most of my current players will like it. If you have ever read Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering  most of my players are Butt Kickers, so I will have alot to explain but first I feel I need to understand it alot better.
@ Haru It will definitly be a different type of game but hopefully one I and my players will enjoy and I always thought that creating a character was a group thing but I will definitly try it solo first to play with the rules.

If I forgot anyone thanks again for all the helpfull advice.

sincerely Heath Delashmit

[ARedthorn]

Quick note on definitions:

Aspects are... aspects. They can be used for a +2 or reroll when they apply, and a Fate Point is spent. If a given aspect hasn't been used before, it can be 'tagged' for free ONCE (no FP cost).

Declarations are one of 3 or 4 ways to CREATE aspects... and the most direct way. A Declaration involves a player paying the GM a Fate Point to (more or less) become GM for a moment- long enough anyway to declare an aspect exists, and you're done. If the GM takes the FP, then that's all there is to it, bargain struck and kept.
Assessments allow a character to use a skill roll to 'discover' aspects that exist already, but that he's unaware of. They can also be used to create an aspect, like a declaration (without the FP cost), but only if the aspect is appropriate or close to one that should probably be there- this is the GM's call.
Maneuvers create an aspect because the character (not player) does something specific to cause it in-game, like turning a bright room dark, by shooting out the lights, or flipping the switch, and almost always requires a skill check (to successfully hit the light bulb, or reach the light switch safely in a gun fight)- only time they aren't required if they're trivial (because anywhere but a gun-fight, making someone roll to flick the light switch is silly, and takes away from the game).
Consequences are aspects that exist because you've taken too much stress to cope, but not enough to lose the conflict... mild are easily recoverable, moderate require some medical/social/psychiatric care (severe burns, emotional trauma), severe require a great deal of time and care (broken bone, PTSD, etc), extreme may never go away (like losing a limb).
But they still all create aspects, and then you use those aspects. (Remember- a freshly created or discovered aspect gets one free use.)

You can use an aspect in 3 ways, really- if it applies: Reroll, +2 bonus, or compel (this is more for the GM than the players, though I've seen them compel eachother).
A Compel is when someone points to a player and says "Hey. You're not playing your character right. If he's such a Loose Canon like it says on your sheet, wouldn't you be shooting your mouth off right now?" "Um... but if I do that, I'm gonna get my ass kicked." Then comes the carrot and stick- if he plays it like a Loose Canon- he gets a fate point... if he refuses, he pays one. It's a lot like oWoD (nWoD for that matter) and gaining willpower if your character stays true to his concept/nature/demeanor/etc... and being able to pay one to break away from it a while (since these respectively reaffirms/undermines their sense of self).
Players can also self-compel, if they're playing well w/o coaxing and the GM didn't notice.

[EDIT: This is all Fate stuff. Anything involving Fate Points or Aspects is part of the Fate system, and just allows things like scenery and personality to affect die rolls.
Fudge is the base system of skills, abilities, and dice rolls... which should be pretty easy to grasp given some practice, given how much experience you have with so many different game systems. It's closest to D20 in the skill+roll vs DC, but with lower skill/die/DC values, and a die roll that produces a bell-curve instead of a flatline. The only other significant differences are Streamlining of rolls (so attack and damage are handled in one roll, reduced by defense and DR), and addition of social and mental combat that follow the exact same rules as physical combat.]

Hope that clears some stuff up...

You can still do some pretty awesome butt-kicking in DFRPG, but the game tries to set things up so players don't have to limit themselves to dungeon grinds- I've never seen a system (even oWoD) handle social conflict as simply or importantly as DF.

If you want to watch a game- there are lots all over the place- and even some play-by-post games on here- it's not quite the same, but may help you out.

[Todjaeger]

@ The Mighty Buzzard The use of Declarations, Aspects, and Maneuvers are going to take some getting use to
The Gm would describe a darkwarehouse with lots of boxes etc.
Declarations are use you spend a Fate point to say I am using the Dark aspect of the warehouse to add +2 to your stealth role
But then that leaves aspects and thats kinda what I thought Declarations are.
Stunts would be something like Karin Murphys thing with 2 guns

In the Dark Warehouse example, there are several options if the warehouse does have the Aspect: Dark.

If you don't know that the warehouse has the scene Aspect: Dark, then you could spend a Fate point, guess the the Aspect: Dark and invoke the Aspect for a +2 to a roll, or a re-roll.

If you wanted to take some time and make an Assessment (YS115) of the warehouse, you could learn that it has the Aspect: Dark, and once you've done that, you can Tag the Aspect: Dark for a free invocation once, and every use of the Aspect afterwords would require a Fate point.

Now, for Declarations.  There are two options here, the first, from is where the player can spend a Fate point and then declare something about the scene or circumstances is true, assuming the Declaration is acceptable to the GM (YS20).

The second use of Declarations is where the player uses a character's skill to set Aspects on the scene, against with a free Tag for the first use.

Lastly, there are Maneuvers.  These are opposed uses of Skill in a conflict which if successful allow Aspects to be placed on the conflict which can then be Tagged for a free first use to impact the conflict.

Now, any Aspects being created or set for a scene do need to be applicable to the story, other than that though, Declarations, Assessments and Maneuvers should be done all the time as they improve how well players do.

-Cheers

[heathd666]

@ Pbartender That makes sense when you put it like that

I am guessing that with all aspects if it is something that helps your character it costs a Fate Point if it is something that hinders your character then you get a Fate Point. Also if I describe a scene in my other example "A dark warehouse cluttered with boxes and debris" since I have already declared these they cant be Tagged by the players correct?

@ Todjaeger I would guess that most of my players are a bit of both of the types both A and B depending upon the situation they would rather work through something with Role Playing but if they are in a hurry they would rather just roll the dice. I definitly have a couple that really enjoy the tactical side of the game but most enjoy both parts I guess. If I remember right when you create a Aspect you should be able to think of 3 quick uses for it in a given situation , at least 1 positive (Aspect) and 1 negative (Compelled)

@ ARedthorn I will have to print those out to try to remember them all. Declarations are basically you spend a Fate Point and wallah if you needed something non game shattering its there. You spend a Fate Point and say "when I first walked in here I saw a book of matches on the table that I could probably use to light this candle" meaning that you used the point to add a book of matches that wasnt there before. Correct?

thanks again
Heath Delashmit

[TheMouse]

Speaking broadly, there are two basic types of RPG players, there are the roll-players, and then the role-players.

False dichotomy alert!

Your enjoyment of assuming a role and playing a game are not a zero sum total. They are merely two measures of things you could enjoy about getting together to play an RPG. The false dichotomy doesn't even account for other gaming agendas.

This particular notion really needs to die in a fire. It's not a useful rubric for ascertaining what things people might like about a game, and it far too easily becomes a judgmental bitch-fest. It has no value except as a tool with which to disparage the play styles of others.

[sinker]

Assessments allow a character to use a skill roll to 'discover' aspects that exist already, but that he's unaware of. They can also be used to create an aspect, like a declaration (without the FP cost), but only if the aspect is appropriate or close to one that should probably be there- this is the GM's call.

Actually this is still declaration (or the second part of it is). The difference between assessment and declaration is not a roll or a fate point, it's where the aspect comes from. If the GM has come up with some aspects that are not immediately apparent to the characters then they may be discovered with an assessment. If the player is introducing an aspect (either through the use of a fate point or with a roll) then it's declaration. Finally if the character is introducing an aspect then it's a maneuver. Those are the big differences between those things.

@Heathd666 It really sounds to me that you are having difficulty reading the book. A lot of this is definitely covered pretty well within it's pages (Like stress only filling one box, and not all of the boxes up to that box). I don't necessarily have a solution to that problem, but I'll tell you that if you can push through it then a lot of your questions will likely be answered. Is there someone in your group who is more inclined to sit down and read the book? Maybe they can be your "expert" when you give the game a try.

[Todjaeger]

It has no value except as a tool with which to disparage the play styles of others.

I don't wish to take the discussion too far off topic, but I did feel it necessary to comment on the above sentence.

From my perspective, there is value in recognizing the preferred style of play that a group of gamers has, and there is nothing disparaging about it.  It just is (or should be) an honest assessment of how a group likes to play.  Once you've recognized what style you or your group likes, then its easy to make sure those expectations are met.  And with that in mind, different systems sometimes lend themselves better to one style of play or another, even within the same genre.

-Cheers

[sinker]

Currently I run a group of 9 to 12 people through Deadlands Reloaded a Savage Worlds setting.

Random aside: I love the Deadlands setting but I just can't get past some of the quirks of savage worlds. Ever tried Deadlands classic?

[Morgan]

Since it is one question I haven't seen answered yet I'd say that 3-4 players and a GM is probably the ideal number for a DFRPG or FATE based game. I've played in 2 players and a GM game and that worked but it felt like a stretch. 5-6 players in a game can be done, for me 7 players is my absolute limit and even that would have to be something like a convention game or one shot. But if you are all just learning FATE I would keep the numbers down to 3-4.

[zenten]

I have 7 players in my game, but regular attendance isn't required.  4-5 players is more typical for any given session.

[sinker]

I think that question is more commonly answered by the GM rather than the game. Most games don't really have a minimum or maximum players. The minimum is usually the number of people the GM feels can propel the story and the maximum usually depends on the number of people the GM can keep straight. Personally I think the sweet spot is between 5 and 7, but I like slightly bigger games.

[Sanctaphrax]

You say you don't understand the stress system. Let me try to explain:

When stress is inflicted to a character, the damaged character marks down their Xth stress box, where X is the amount of stress they took. If the box is full, the character marks down the next unfilled stress box.

When a character is forced to fill in a stress box they don't have, they are taken out. They are knocked unconscious, killed, or whatever the attacker was going for.

If a character wants to, they can absorb stress by taking a consequence. This is normally done to avoid being taken out. A consequence is an aspect, rated mild, moderate, severe, or extreme. Milds absorb two stress, moderates absorb 4, severes absorb 6, and extremes absorb 8. The higher the amount of stress absorbed, the longer the consequence takes to heal. Generally, a character can take 1 consequence of each level, but there are ways to increase the supply.

Does that make sense?

[The Mighty Buzzard]

@ ARedthorn I will have to print those out to try to remember them all. Declarations are basically you spend a Fate Point and wallah if you needed something non game shattering its there. You spend a Fate Point and say "when I first walked in here I saw a book of matches on the table that I could probably use to light this candle" meaning that you used the point to add a book of matches that wasnt there before. Correct?

It was covered before but I'll give you the Readers Digest version.  On declarations you can either:
A) Spend a fate point and it will be true if the GM accepts it.
B) Find an appropriate skill, roll it against a GM-set difficulty, and if you make the roll it is true.

The first method takes a fate point but there's no risk of a bad roll.  The second is less of a sure thing but doesn't cost you anything.  Either way, you get a free tag on any aspects created by your declarations.

They're extremely handy because you can do something like declare Rickety Wooden Stairs, Bad Wiring, and Leaky Pipes (using either method A, B, or a combination of both).  Then take the tags on all three of them for a +6 to your roll on a single maneuver to put the aspect Stunned or Muscle Spasms on someone.  You could then tag that aspect for a +2 to something else and, if it was sticky, continue to burn through fate points invoking it for both offense and defense.  Or you might even convince a GM to let you take the +6 to an attack roll and justify it by saying falling through the stairs and getting electrocuted caused the extra stress.  Creativity counts for a lot in this game.

On a side note, does anyone know if the RAW has a limit on how many declarations you can make during an exchange or if it's until the GM says "cut that out and do something already"?

[sinker]

On a side note, does anyone know if the RAW has a limit on how many declarations you can make during an exchange or if it's until the GM says "cut that out and do something already"?

As far as I know it's completely up to the GM, but most people here limit it to one or two declarations per exchange at the very least (sometimes much less often).

[Todjaeger]

You say you don't understand the stress system. Let me try to explain:

When stress is inflicted to a character, the damaged character marks down their Xth stress box, where X is the amount of stress they took. If the box is full, the character marks down the next unfilled stress box.

When a character is forced to fill in a stress box they don't have, they are taken out. They are knocked unconscious, killed, or whatever the attacker was going for.

If a character wants to, they can absorb stress by taking a consequence. This is normally done to avoid being taken out. A consequence is an aspect, rated mild, moderate, severe, or extreme. Milds absorb two stress, moderates absorb 4, severes absorb 6, and extremes absorb 8. The higher the amount of stress absorbed, the longer the consequence takes to heal. Generally, a character can take 1 consequence of each level, but there are ways to increase the supply.

Does that make sense?

This might just be the way I'm reading this, but the player should mark UP, their stress boxes, not down.

Or in other words, a character has 4 Physical stress boxes, all unmarked.  The character is hit for a total of 2 stress.  Choosing not to take a Consequence, the player marks off Physical stress box #2.  The character is then hit again, and again for 2 stress.  The player still chooses not (or doesn't have any available) to take a Consequence, so the player then goes to mark of stress box #2.  Since that box is already been filled, the stress 'rolls up' and the player instead has to mark stress box #3.

Just wanted to clarify that, since the way it was written, it appeared to be saying that after stress box #2 was filled, the next box to fill would be stress box #1 when the stress goes up, not down.

-Cheers