Enchanted Items for Non-Spellcasters...

[Sanctaphrax]

I wouldn't allow people to take over the maintenance of magic items without a spellcasting power or an "item maintenance" power because I think that maintaining magical items requires magic.

Taking Refinement without spellcasting just seems wrong, although there's no actual rule against it as far as I know. If I were to make an "item maintenance" power, it would pretty much be Refinement with a slight reflavouring. Might also allow the extra use for mental stress thing with it, or maybe not.

I would probably say that a roll of X would usually get you an X strength item for one of the basic functions. Like an attack or armour.

Each extra use reduces the strength by one.

Weirder items are harder to get, of course. And unless you beat the difficulty substantially, you aren't getting exactly what you want.

Looking for a strength 6 enchanted item armour? If you roll 6 to get it, you'll probably get something with that effect. But it might be a super-tough suit or it might be an amulet that creates a force field or it might be a chainmail bikini that attracts attacks to the armoured part.

[Silverblaze]

I'd be in favor of a power allowing the use of enchanted items.  treat it like Refinement (but only for enchanted item slots - not focus items, not specializations).  I can see why treating it as a stunt would allow mortals to use enchanted items made for them.  i wouldn't have an issue with it in a game I ran or played in...however...I can see the point that mortals cannot have powers or they lose the +2 refresh.  I can also see that this stunt is far more like a power.

There is no middle ground.  It will simply have to vary from table to table.  There is no right or wrong answer here.  Even in terms of game balance.  I don't like the idea of only spellcasters being able to use magical items ( enchanted items).

[The Mighty Buzzard]

There is no right or wrong answer here.

Of course there is, whatever answer agrees with mine.

[Pbartender]

Of course there is, whatever answer agrees with mine...

...is what the right answer or the wrong one?   

Now, I've got a little bit different point of view on it than you, Sanctaphrax, but I understand where you're coming from.  It just seems to me that there is a distinct difference between using something, maintaining something and building something.  It's not a perfect example, but consider an automobile...  Most people know how to drive on, while only having a minimal knowledge of how to maintain it past gassing up.  Mechanics can operate them and can repair and thoroughly maintain them when they break, but wouldn't necessarily know how to design or build a car from scratch.  For that, you'd need an automotive engineer.

For my purposes, I'm looking for the magic item equivalent of someone floating between "driver" and "mechanic"...  Someone who knows how to drive, and can do the basic preventative maintenance, but who would have to go to the mechanic for any major repairs.  Does that make sense?

This would be a person who has no innate magic of their own, and so cannot create enchanted items or repair broken enchanted items, but knows how to use them and perform the most basic maintenance on them to keep them charged and working, and also has connections for acquiring them.

I've got an idea that might work (for me and my group, at least).  I'll want you guys to take a look at it, but let me think it for just a little bit more, first.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

...is what the right answer or the wrong one?   

Depends on if the question involves dating and/or alcohol.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think that maintaining magic items involves recasting the spells on them.

So the idea of maintaining an item without magic makes little sense to me.

[Pbartender]

I think that maintaining magic items involves recasting the spells on them.

So the idea of maintaining an item without magic makes little sense to me.

Oh, I understand where you're coming from...  I just don't necessarily agree. To me, (using my earlier imperfect example) it's almost like saying that you need to rebuild your car from scratch every time you want fill the tank with gas, or that you need to be a programmer to scan for viruses on your computer.

Perhaps we've got different ideas of what "maintenance" entails?

That said, I think it would at the very least require a modest understanding of how magic works, even if you can't actually cast magic spells yourself.  That might be considered enough to knock out the Pure Mortal refresh bonus, though.

[ways and means]

The is president for  pcs to take up the refinement cost of another enchanters crafting (warden swords) so as long as a pc has some fasility for the maintanace of such an item (all the wardens are wizards) so the arguement in my mind comes from whether a stunt could justify maintanance. For the original question I woul just give the man of god a 1 refresh power to maintain enchanted items and have him buy refinement as usual.

[Sanctaphrax]

I hate to bring up an example from the novels, but I'm pretty sure Harry talks about how he has to recast the spells on his staff from time to time. And Bob says that all magic fades away over time unless linked to a bloodline, I think.

[Silverblaze]

I hate to bring up an example from the novels, but I'm pretty sure Harry talks about how he has to recast the spells on his staff from time to time. And Bob says that all magic fades away over time unless linked to a bloodline, I think.

It sucks, but I think you're right.

Sort of like recharging items in D&D.

[InFerrumVeritas]

So just for posterity, here's the final version of the stunt that we use for the one (significantly behind the power curve) pure mortal in our game.

Collector of the Arcane (Resources)
Once per scene, for a fate point, you may declare that you have a minor magical trinket (potion or single use enchanted item) on hand.  The strength of the item is equal to your Resources roll (possibly restricted by Lore, at GM's discretion).

[Silverblaze]

Sounds okay to me. 

[Pbartender]

I hate to bring up an example from the novels, but I'm pretty sure Harry talks about how he has to recast the spells on his staff from time to time. And Bob says that all magic fades away over time unless linked to a bloodline, I think.

Fair enough...  I'm not perfectly conversant in the books (I've only read through Fool Moon, so far), but that sounds familiar.  And I'd rather be consistent, if I can.

So, Plan B (which is not so different from my original plan):

First, we have Focus Items, which are only really useful to spellcasters so we'll ignore them, Potions, which practically anyone cause anyway so we won't worry about them, and Enchanted Items, which require a certain amount of magical upkeep and will cause us problems.

It's established that Enchanted Items need to recharge between uses, and there's indication that most of them will tend to do this naturally on their own by drawing magical energies from the environment -- that's dealt with by only allowing a certain number of uses per session.

It's also heavily implicated that Enchanted Items require occasional repair, upkeep and maintenance, and that this upkeep is magical in nature.  It would seem that in the game this is emulated through the limited Focus Item and Enchanted Item slots, and the fact that normally only wizards have access to those slots.  Also, that anyone with available Item slots can take over the "maintenance" of an enchanted item, even though they didn't make it.  Finally, that untrained mortals can use enchanted items, but not necessarily take care of them.

So, what I need is a power that gives a "mortal" just enough magical ability to use and maintain enchanted items, without having enough talent to actually cast spells.  The Minor Abilities category of powers seems perfect for this sort of thing, I think...  Mana Static is a good example of a turning a single innate ability of Wizards into a Minor Ability (and likewise, while there's nothing in the novels to support Mana Static, to my knowledge, there's also nothing to contradict it).

So, I think we can now all agree that the real limitation here is the ability to maintain enchanted items.  Since the game uses item slots for that, rules-wise I think all we need to do is create a power (that's right, a power, not a stunt) that gives out a handful of enchanted item slots without granting any real spellcasting ability.

All the spellcasting powers -- Evocation (-3 refresh), Channeling (-2), Thaumaturgy (-3) and Rituals (-2) -- grant 4 Enchanted Item slots (2 Focus Item slots, really) for free in addition to spellcasting ability.  Also, for -1 refresh, Refinement may grant 4 Enchantment Item slots as one of it's options...  a perfect place to start.

In addition, I'd like to add some very basic rules for acquiring magical items outside of making them yourself.  After all, only Thaumaturgy guarantees the ability to make your own magical items -- if a wizard doesn't know Thaumaturgy or Channeling (Crafting), where does he get his magic items from?  I think the SotC rules for purchasing gadets might provide a basis for this.

So, how about a -1 refresh power that grants 4 Enchantment Item slots, plus the means to use Contacting and Resources to get a hold of Enchanted Items and Potions (given enough time)?  There are a few other possible options, though, that I'd like your opinions on...

• Should the power allow the character to choose items immediately at character creation? (I'd tend to say no.)
• Should the power prohibit the character from picking potions on-the-fly? (I'd tend to say yes.)
• Should the power allow the character to take mental stress to gain additional Enchanted Item uses?  (I could go either way, here.)
• What about making it a 0 refresh cost power, but it only grants 2 Enchanted Item slots?

Thoughts?

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I wouldn't say most items recharge themselves but if you can work out a justification of how they do then I don't see any reason for the ones your character ends up with to need recharging.  The maintenance on the items doesn't come off to me as physical so much as topping up the spell on the item since it will wear down sunrise by sunrise, seems like that would require you to be able to cast the original spell.  That, in turn, would kind of necessitate that you understand the spell used in its creation either by having the crafter explain it or by using the Sight.

A Lore roll might suffice for that too but I'd also think you'd need good enough skills to craft the item yourself were you a wizard, though maybe at a 1/3 or 1/4 discount.  Wouldn't do to have your character able to recharge three use, eight shift fireball wands if you had Mediocre Discipline, Conviction, and Lore.

Those arguments aside, I don't see this being a bad power as long as you can justify it mechanics and story-wise.

[Pbartender]

I wouldn't say most items recharge themselves but if you can work out a justification of how they do then I don't see any reason for the ones your character ends up with to need recharging.

 

The obvious example is from the novels...  Harry's rings.  They recharge by automatically storing up kinetic energy as he moves his hands normally throughout the day (though actively hitting a punching seems to accelerate the process).  In that instance, the user doesn't need to do anything magical to replenish the spell, aside from knowing and understanding the mechanism by which it's replenished.

The maintenance on the items doesn't come off to me as physical so much as topping up the spell on the item since it will wear down sunrise by sunrise, seems like that would require you to be able to cast the original spell.

Ah, I see now.

See, I viewed it more like a battery...  You just need to know how to pump magical energy back into the spell that's already there.  And you'd only need to recast the spell, should the item get damaged (like when Harry's shield bracelet gets burnt out protecting him from that elevator fall) and need to be repaired.

That, in turn, would kind of necessitate that you understand the spell used in its creation either by having the crafter explain it or by using the Sight.

Then how would you explain spellcasters with magical items that use spells that they can't cast?  For example, I could make a character with just the Ritual power (or just Thaumaturgy, for that matter), and then give him an Enchanted Item that shoots lightning bolts a few times per session.  He can keep it, use it, recharge it and maintain it, and it's perfectly legal by the rules, even though he can't cast lightning spells or even any kind of Evocation at all.