How would you make a ward that could do this?

[JediDresden]

I have never designed a ward in the game before.  I need a preety high complex challenging one for the group in the big climax of the game.  I need something to keep my BBG safe until the thaumaturgy ward specialist wizard in the group can take it down.  So I need it to be powerful and be able to stop physical things, ie bullets, as well as magic energy and mortals.  oh and if possible spiritual energy as well.

I know it will be a big spell but the bad guy has been preparing for this for a long time so powerful is ok, I just want to do it by the rules as much as possible.  the bad guy is as powerful as I need him to be, probably lre o 5 and some lawbreakers in there if it will help.  He is kind of a puppetmaster and they have not really wencountered him beofre this climax.  Necromantic and conjuration focuses probably.

Any hlp would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

[Sanctaphrax]

A ward by default stops just about everything. So there's no need to worry about that.

If you put the ward strength at 18 or so, you can be pretty confident that they won't get past without thaumaturgy or an excessive number of Declarations. So you can ensure that they will be slowed while giving your ward specialist a chance to shine.

You can include landmines if you want to make things more interesting, but it's a bit pointless if the players are expected to take the thing down with thaumaturgy. Landmines are more for defending against attempts at straightforwardly beating the ward down.

[Belial666]

Well, a submerged wizard can bring down an 18-shift ward;

1) Lore roll (or open the Sight) to see how big the Ward is.
2) Discipline maneuver in the same exchange to apply "Focused" aspect on self.
3) Wizard burns his 4th mental stress box, his 2 mild mental consequences, his moderate consequence and his spirit power of 7 to call 18 shifts of power.
4) Wizard tags Focused, burns 2 FPs, takes his 4th physical box as backlash and uses his spirit control of 8 to control the shifts.
5) Having called and controlled the shifts, the wizard casts an 18-shift evocation counterspell that removes the Ward outright, no other rolls required.


The above is a two-exchange combo where evocation is used on a massive counterspell. Fastest way to remove thaumaturgy in the 16-20 range (depending on the wizard's power). So a 18-shift Ward is not going to stop a determined wizard, or even slow him. However, most BBEGs prefer enemy wizards spend a spell that can flatten a battleship on their Ward rather than themselves. That's because BBEGs tend to be squishier than battleships.

[JediDresden]

Could I do the same thing with a Magic Circle?  I know in Fool Moon there were overlaid circles that kept out certian things (or kept them in as the case may be).  I was actually thinking circle when I wrote ward (but I could make it a ward without too much trouble), how bad would that change it if I had overlaping circles that did the same thing?

Also good thing to know about the power levels, I had originally thought about something around a 25 shift ward.  the Wizard has several fate points he can spend, so I am not worried about making it a little tough.

[zenten]

Well, a submerged wizard can bring down an 18-shift ward;

1) Lore roll (or open the Sight) to see how big the Ward is.
2) Discipline maneuver in the same exchange to apply "Focused" aspect on self.
3) Wizard burns his 4th mental stress box, his 2 mild mental consequences, his moderate consequence and his spirit power of 7 to call 18 shifts of power.
4) Wizard tags Focused, burns 2 FPs, takes his 4th physical box as backlash and uses his spirit control of 8 to control the shifts.
5) Having called and controlled the shifts, the wizard casts an 18-shift evocation counterspell that removes the Ward outright, no other rolls required.


The above is a two-exchange combo where evocation is used on a massive counterspell. Fastest way to remove thaumaturgy in the 16-20 range (depending on the wizard's power). So a 18-shift Ward is not going to stop a determined wizard, or even slow him. However, most BBEGs prefer enemy wizards spend a spell that can flatten a battleship on their Ward rather than themselves. That's because BBEGs tend to be squishier than battleships.

Three exchanges.  That will bring the ward strength down to mediocre, but you'll need to bring it down to -4 to totally remove it.  Which is important if there's a landmine on it.

[zenten]

Could I do the same thing with a Magic Circle?  I know in Fool Moon there were overlaid circles that kept out certian things (or kept them in as the case may be).  I was actually thinking circle when I wrote ward (but I could make it a ward without too much trouble), how bad would that change it if I had overlaping circles that did the same thing?

Also good thing to know about the power levels, I had originally thought about something around a 25 shift ward.  the Wizard has several fate points he can spend, so I am not worried about making it a little tough.

A magic circle is basically just a ward that's a circle instead of hooked on to a threshold.

[JediDresden]

@zenten:  Explain the three rounds to me.  I missed that.

[Sanctaphrax]

Circles have no mechanics. You'll have to make it up.

Belial's example is theoretically possible but rather improbable. It involves a specialized evoker burning everything he's got in one spell, and risking a severe consequence if he rolls badly on control.

Also, Counterspells are a little complex IIRC. You first have to make a Lore assessment, and I think you have to account for shifts of complexity allocated to duration.

So really, I would not worry at all about Belial's example. It's almost certainly not going to happen.

[zenten]

JediDresden: 3 rounds or another 4 shifts to totally take down the ward.

Although now that I think about that more it's not 18 shifts to bring the ward down to mediocre, but 36.  The ward lowers any effect to bypass/destroy it by 18 shifts, but then you still need to spend another 18 shifts to lower it to mediocre (40 total to destroy it).  Well out of range of evocation.

[Sanctaphrax]

Belial was suggesting a counterspell, which is different from a simple attack.

I'd give a page reference if my books were on hand.

[Haru]

If you want to keep them working on getting through the ward for a while, you could build a layered ward instead of one with high numbers. Make the outer layer of the ward around 4-5 shifts, nothing fancy, easy to break through. Once it is broken (which can also happen by someone trying to force his way inside), the real wards spring up. The next layer is still nothing too fancy, maybe 2 shifts better, but it will activate another level, and by then the wards specialist should realize, that this is not the way to go about it. He has to sever the connection between the layers, so the next layers won't be activated, when he breaks down the active wall. Ward 3 and above should have some nasty things built in, just to get the message across, that every layer will be worse than the last. I would let the wards specialist take down different aspects of a layer individually, as long as he was able to make them out through a lore roll. Sort of like the wizards equivalent to hacking, I suppose.

The concept should be especially fitting, if the BBG is on the sneaky side of bad, because you don't know how many layers you'll get, what the actual strength of the fortifications are. The next layer could be the last, or it could activate another ward while firing a bolt of lightning at you.

It is more of a mind game than just brute forcing your way through, and I think a wards specialist might enjoy something like this more than just hulk smashing through a magical brick wall.

[Belial666]

1) A counterspell is not an attack; if it meets the number of shifts in the enemy spell, the enemy spell is dispelled outright.
2) A wizard has the Sight. They can use it directly or indirectly to see exactly what magic has been woven, especially if they open it.
3) If you layer multiple wards, the wizard can go for a Disjunction; make a counterspell to match the bigger spell, then add area effect to also remove any weaker spells in the area.


Magic is both art based on intuition, and right planning based on information. If your group doesn't think to use the Sight to see the Wards, even small protections become challenges. If they do think to use it, then make sure your Ward is big enough to resist the Greater Dispelling/Disjuction attempt.

[JediDresden]

Haru:  I like the idea of a layered ward.  I think I might use it.  Thanks.

[Becq]

So a 18-shift Ward is not going to stop a determined wizard, or even slow him.

Sure it will.  All that counterspell would result in is the attacking wizard's choice of a reduction in ward strength of 1, or a 1-shift attack reaching a target inside the ward (but leaving the ward at full strength), according to YS276.  And since the very determined (and admittedly optimized) wizard just managed to inflict three consequences and several stress boxes on himself, this would be an ideal time for the villain's allies (lying in ambush nearby) to counterattack!

To drop the ward (completely) with a single evocation would require a 40 shift attack or 36 shift counterspell, I think.  In the case of an attack spell, this would reduce the strength of the ward to -4, thus nullifying it.  In the case of the counterspell, the ward would block the first 18, letting the remaining 18 shifts 'through' to counter the ward, also nullifying it.

[Sanctaphrax]

Pretty sure that that is incorrect.

Please reread the section on counterspells, page 253 of YS.

Regardless, the evocation counterspell is an edge case. If it really bothers you, just bump the ward power up to 22 or so.

If I were to go with layered wards, I'd try a different landmine on each. One is an attack evocation, one is a summoning spell, one is a divination that tells the caster about the PCs' abilities...