Understanding Magic Use

[Rungok]

So...

I'm sure this gets asked a lot, but can someone help me understand how spellcasting works?

I mean I kinda understand the core of it, but I don't get how to use it fully or properly in the game. I love the series and get how it is done as a story element, but not how it mechanically works.

My understanding is based on the character I'm playing, who is a Kinetomancer.
So what I understand is:
1. You explain what you're trying to do.
2. You decide on how many shifts of power to use for the effect.
3. If it is less than or equal to your discipline, you don't need to roll to control the spell.
4. If you summon more than your discipline, then you have to roll and try to get high enough to match your shifts of power.
5. If you don't, you have to 'bleed off' the excess by either taking the strain or causing fallout.
6. No matter what, casting a spell causes a mental stress, plus one per shift of power over what I can safely draw with my discipline.

...

So from what I can tell, with a conviction of +4, I can only cast 4 spells within my threshold difficulty or one spell with +3 shifts of power before I'm out of the fight. That seems a little... weak? Any help on understanding this would be great, cause characters in the books can be using magic for significantly longer than just four actions before they're tapped out.

Another thing I am trying to understand is what kind of scale or scope does each shift of power mean. Does hitting someone with a five shift kinetic bolt hurt a lot? What about using a six shift spell to amplify my leap? How far does it throw me? or how fast could I go if i use a five shift speed/reflexes increase? How much could I lift... etc.

Also, a side question about intent and the first law of magic. If I were to use said bolt of kinetic force during a fight with a red court vamp and blew out a load bearing wall, bringing a building down on us but also crushing to death of the poor homeless guy hiding in the next room, did I break the first law?

[NicholasQuinn]

1. You explain what you're trying to do.
2. You decide on how many shifts of power to use for the effect.
3. If it is less than or equal to your discipline, you don't need to roll to control the spell.
4. If you summon more than your discipline, then you have to roll and try to get high enough to match your shifts of power.
5. If you don't, you have to 'bleed off' the excess by either taking the strain or causing fallout.
6. No matter what, casting a spell causes a mental stress, plus one per shift of power over what I can safely draw with my discipline.

Mostly right. 3 is slightly off, you have to roll discipline to control any spell that isn't a Rote; a Rote which has power less than or equal to your discipline (+ specialties/foci). You have a number of Rotes equal to your Lore. As for 6, its pretty much right, except the cost can be covered by taking a consequence.

So from what I can tell, with a conviction of +4, I can only cast 4 spells within my threshold difficulty or one spell with +3 shifts of power before I'm out of the fight. That seems a little... weak? Any help on understanding this would be great, cause characters in the books can be using magic for significantly longer than just four actions before they're tapped out.

You can cast 4 spells, without taking consequences. If you are willing to take consequences, you could theoretically cast 7. One for each stress box, and one for each consequence level. The second bit is wrong, a spell with +3 shifts of power would fill your 4th stress box, but only your 4th stress box.

Do they? Dresden, at least in the early books, doesn't cast much magic per fight. A single spell (e.g, an attack) could actually be represented fluff wise as a 'flurry of fireballs', etc. As per the later books, at this point he's picked up Sponsored Magic. That allows him to take a point of debt, in exchange for what would have been 2 points worth of consequence (e.g, a mild consequence) thus allowing an extra spell per point of sponsored debt.

Another thing I am trying to understand is what kind of scale or scope does each shift of power mean. Does hitting someone with a five shift kinetic bolt hurt a lot? What about using a six shift spell to amplify my leap? How far does it throw me? or how fast could I go if i use a five shift speed/reflexes increase? How much could I lift... etc.

Depends on the table. Four shifts is Battlefield Weaponry: think C4, explosives etc, or high powered weaponry. So in my mind, 4 shifts is a fairly powerful spell. Harry's fuego and forzare start at this level. Many tables however see spells as high as 6 - 8 as Rotes at the Submerged level. A submerged Wizard of my creation will generally have 5-6 shift rotes - Harry's mentioned he's not exactly good at Evocation at this point, so those numbers seem reasonable to me. Carlos also wields 6 shift Rotes. A look at the write-ups in Our World might give you an idea: although many of the writeups seem underpowered, or are argued to be so by the majority.

Shift shift leap amp? First, see Harry's sidebar about Evocation based movement (aka, its a bad idea, due to lack of control). However a good ruling I've seen is 1 shift per zone, +1 shift per level of border that is in the way (although that was about blowing away an enemy, and was part of a manoeuvre).

The second spell? I'd rule that as block against attacks personally, but it depends upon your intent, as-to why you want/need the increase.

Also, a side question about intent and the first law of magic. If I were to use said bolt of kinetic force during a fight with a red court vamp and blew out a load bearing wall, bringing a building down on us but also crushing to death of the poor homeless guy hiding in the next room, did I break the first law?

Again, depends on the table. Some would argue that it still counts. Others that unless the Wizard knew about the homeless guy, he can't be held responsible, or have intended it to happen: thus no lawbreaker. The closest scenario in the books is the burning of Bianca's house, and possible civilian casualties. We'll never know if Harry gained a lawbreaker for that, as he already had one, and that would have only been a second strike (thus no increase).

Hope that helps.

[Rungok]

Shift shift leap amp? First, see Harry's sidebar about Evocation based movement (aka, its a bad idea, due to lack of control). However a good ruling I've seen is 1 shift per zone, +1 shift per level of border that is in the way (although that was about blowing away an enemy, and was part of a manoeuvre).

Well, I was trying to figure out how to emulate the kinetomancy spell that the warlock in Ghost Story used to increase his speed/reflexes and make himself unbelievably fast/lethal for a short burst. That sounds like evocation. Just instead I wanted to make it so he can just run/move faster.

[UmbraLux]

My understanding is based on the character I'm playing, who is a Kinetomancer.
So what I understand is:
1. You explain what you're trying to do.
1.5 You decide whether this is best modeled by Attack, Block, Counterspell, or Maneuver.
2. You decide on how many shifts of power to use for the effect.
3. If it is less than or equal to your discipline, you don't need to roll to control the spell. This only applies to non-attack rotes.  Most of the time you will roll Discipline.
4. If you summon more than your discipline, then you have to roll and try to get high enough to match your shifts of power.
5. If you don't, you have to 'bleed off' the excess by either taking the strain or causing fallout.
6. No matter what, casting a spell causes a mental stress, plus one per shift of power over what I can safely draw with my discipline Conviction[/c].

Made a few additions / corrections...hopefully I caught them all.

Here's a quick stab at evocation...

Evocation simplified:

• Spell Power Rating is normally limited to Conviction + a single power focus item.  Going over this limit is possible, but costs extra stress or consequences.  (Essentially taking backlash in return for a stronger spell.)
  
• Spell Control is a Discipline roll modified by +2 per aspect you tag or invoke.  You need to meet or exceed the spell's power rating to cast without consequences.  If your roll is low, you'll need to decide whether a) the spell fails, b) uncontrolled power leaks from the spell (reducing its power) and affects the environment as fallout, or c) uncontrolled power affects you (taking extra stress or consequences) as backlash. 
  
• Evocation spell options:  Intent is to...
  • ...cause damage:  Attack.
  • ...prevent something:  Block.
  • ...affect something through narrative:  Maneuver.
  • ...stop an ongoing spell:  Counterspell.

Attacks:  Damage is spell's power + spell's control roll - target's defense roll - target's applicable armor (or block).  Duration is instant. 
Blocks: 

• Blocks & Veils have a rating equal to the spell's power - 2 if covering a group or small area.  In combat, duration is one exchange per extra shift on the Control roll.  Out of combat blocks typically last a scene.  Blocks may be pierced by anything they're blocking and generally fail once pierced. 
• Blocks may be used to make an existing barrier more difficult to surpass.  In this case it adds the spell's power to the zone border rating. 
• Armor does not fail once pierced but has half the power of an equivalent block.  (Each point of armor costs two points of spell power.)  Otherwise it follows block rules.

Maneuvers: 

• Unresisted maneuvers cost three shifts of power.
• Resisted maneuvers must match or exceed. the defender's roll.
• For two additional shifts of power a maneuver can be applied to a zone.
• Maneuvers are "fragile" if the spell's power equals the required number of shifts.  Fragile maneuvers don't last long and need to be used almost immediately.
• Maneuvers are "sticky" if the spell's power exceeds the required number of shifts.  Sticky maneuvers last until a) successfully resisted / removed, b) until the situation changes enough to invalidate them, or c) until the scene ends.

Counterspells:  Must have enough power to match the spell being countered.  This typically requires a Lore assessment of the spell (a free action).  The spell is suppressed one exchange per shift of power beyond that required to match. 

Trappings (Elements) are aspects! They can be invoked or compelled as appropriate to the situation.  A sorcerer throwing fire bolts might invoke the Fire Element he's using for +2 to the spell's power when attacking a black court vampire.  On the flip side, the vampire's Animated Stone Gargoyle might invoke the same Fire Element for a +2 to its defense roll...since fire doesn't do much harm to stone.

So from what I can tell, with a conviction of +4, I can only cast 4 spells within my threshold difficulty or one spell with +3 shifts of power before I'm out of the fight. That seems a little... weak? Any help on understanding this would be great, cause characters in the books can be using magic for significantly longer than just four actions before they're tapped out.

More correctly, it's four spells equal to or less than Conviction per scene.  A spell at power Conviction +3 would mark off your 4th stress box but still leave boxes 1-3 open.  So you could cast a spell at Conviction +3, a second at C +2, a third at C +1, and a fourth at Conviction or lower.

Another thing I am trying to understand is what kind of scale or scope does each shift of power mean. Does hitting someone with a five shift kinetic bolt hurt a lot? What about using a six shift spell to amplify my leap? How far does it throw me? or how fast could I go if i use a five shift speed/reflexes increase? How much could I lift... etc.

A five shift bolt will probably cause a normal mortal to take a moderate consequence.  Even a reasonably tough mortal would probably be taking a minor consequence.  This is assuming five shifts over their defense roll & any armor...five shifts of power plus additional shifts from the skill roll may well take someone out.

Also, a side question about intent and the first law of magic. If I were to use said bolt of kinetic force during a fight with a red court vamp and blew out a load bearing wall, bringing a building down on us but also crushing to death of the poor homeless guy hiding in the next room, did I break the first law?

This is really dependent on individual groups.  But there are several long discussions on the topic...  :)

[NicholasQuinn]

Well, I was trying to figure out how to emulate the kinetomancy spell that the warlock in Ghost Story used to increase his speed/reflexes and make himself unbelievably fast/lethal for a short burst. That sounds like evocation. Just instead I wanted to make it so he can just run/move faster.

Ah, I see! I'd run it as Evocation: attacks, blocks and manoeuvre's as usual, but with different fluff (you'd be moving to cause hurt, dodge etc). For all out movement (and other such things) you could have the shifts assigned substitute for a skill's role, and roll (athletics, endurance etc) to achieve effects such as running distances, jumping fences, and the like. That would probably be how I'd handle it. It might be worth looking at the ESCAPE! potion, as that deals with movement via magic.

[computerking]

Well, I was trying to figure out how to emulate the kinetomancy spell that the warlock in Ghost Story used to increase his speed/reflexes and make himself unbelievably fast/lethal for a short burst. That sounds like evocation. Just instead I wanted to make it so he can just run/move faster.

I think there's a thread on that in the spoiler forums, too. Also remember that some parts of enhancing your character are narration-based, so the (seemingly) small boost that your character gets (for example, an Aspect like Speed-boosted for a "measley" +2) is represented by a narrative like, "He mutters for a moment, then, quick as a flash, is upon you, a knife blade dancing across your skin, stinging in its wake. The blood doesn't have time to start welling up before he's across the room from you, sitting on a trash can."

As long as everyone believes it's appropriate, Your Kinetomancer can do stuff like that all day.

[UmbraLux]

Do they? Dresden, at least in the early books, doesn't cast much magic per fight. A single spell (e.g, an attack) could actually be represented fluff wise as a 'flurry of fireballs', etc. As per the later books, at this point he's picked up Sponsored Magic. That allows him to take a point of debt, in exchange for what would have been 2 points worth of consequence (e.g, a mild consequence) thus allowing an extra spell per point of sponsored debt.

It's a bit of a quibble, but sponsored magic can be cast without stress because it can be "thaumaturgy at evocation speed" and thaumaturgy doesn't cause stress.  Sponsor debt simply increases the spell's power.

Well, I was trying to figure out how to emulate the kinetomancy spell that the warlock in Ghost Story used to increase his speed/reflexes and make himself unbelievably fast/lethal for a short burst. That sounds like evocation. Just instead I wanted to make it so he can just run/move faster.

Two ways to model this:
 1.  Maneuvers - cast a spell to give yourself Lightning Reflexes and tag or invoke for a +2 when needed.
 2.  Temporary powers - cast a spell and pay two fate points to give yourself Inhuman Speed for a scene.  You'll want to work out spell difficulty with your GM ahead of time.

[NicholasQuinn]

It's a bit of a quibble, but sponsored magic can be cast without stress because it can be "thaumaturgy at evocation speed" and thaumaturgy doesn't cause stress.  Sponsor debt simply increases the spell's power.

I guess that works. But I don't like it, and personally wouldn't run it myself, or allow it to run at my table, that way. Hence the method I quoted, which I previously thought correct (mayhaps I now stand corrected, although it still seems to work), which seems a fair middle ground.

[Edit:] Some Sponsored Magic demands a point of debt to do Thaumaturgy as Evocation speeds anyway, so that would work. Or I'd require it of any such attacks/shields.

Wait. Doesn't Thaumaturgy at Evocation speeds require a point of mental stress anyway? I figured since it was run as an Evocation, it paid the price as well.

[computerking]

2.  Temporary powers - cast a spell and pay two fate points to give yourself Inhuman Speed for a scene.  You'll want to work out spell difficulty with your GM ahead of time.

Umbralux, For my own benefit I need to verify: Would a character be able to do something like this with Evocation? Or is it too complex for Evocation to handle and therefore must be done as a transformative Thaumaturgy spell?

[UmbraLux]

Umbralux, For my own benefit I need to verify: Would a character be able to do something like this with Evocation? Or is it too complex for Evocation to handle and therefore must be done as a transformative Thaumaturgy spell?

That's really up to the individual group...and another topic with some long threads devoted to it. 

It could be as simple as a speed maneuver invoked for effect (evocation), a somewhat more complex potion (thaumaturgy), or a full blown thaumaturgy ritual.  Where you set the bar is really up to individual groups.

[UmbraLux]

Some Sponsored Magic demands a point of debt to do Thaumaturgy as Evocation speeds anyway, so that would work. Or I'd require it of any such attacks/shields.

Wait. Doesn't Thaumaturgy at Evocation speeds require a point of mental stress anyway? I figured since it was run as an Evocation, it paid the price as well.

Skimmed the section again - the only references I see to sponsor debt are to "...invoke an aspect without paying a fate point."  Can you point out the other debt references?

[NicholasQuinn]

The Dark Powers Are Always Willing To Help, pg 289. Its not directly linked to consequences, as I've made it seem, but to stress hits. It is 1 debt for 2 shifts of stress, as stated, though.

Edit: for stuff more relevant to the quote. Hellfire states you might have to pay debt to do Thaumaturgy at Evocation speeds, on a case by case basis. 

[Rungok]

Okay thanks for the answers so far, but it does bring up more questions.

The best way to emulate a reflex-boost via kinetomancy would be to use a spell to tag an aspect upon myself that I can use to give me +2 for relevant actions? Wouldn't that mean not only would I have to take stress to cast it but I'd have to pay a fate point every time I use it? Would that be more efficient than just taking a stress every time I use the spell as an instant action?

The second question I have is how magic works with weaponry. If for example I had a longsword and used a kinetomancy rote to improve the force my blows deliver with said sword, would that be a direct improvement on the weapon's damage? Could I also make that longsword into a focus Item specifically for that? I ask because my character wants to have an edge when in melee against the supernatural nasties and having a weapon that hits REALLY hard would be a good idea.

This is not accounting for figuring out how to make the sword survive hitting a target like that. Unless it is a focus item, in which I think it gets some kind of plot immunity. Examples including when Dresden uses his wooden staff to lever open things that would ordinarily break the item, like bars and whatnot. (he explains that on top of using it as a physical lever he's using it mystically too. paraphrase)

[Edit] I'm thinking of using a Baseball Bat as the weapon focus item. Are there stats for those? [/Edit]

[UmbraLux]

@Nicholas:  Hmmm, that seems to a) be limited to "Dark Powers" and b) add one debt for "every 2 shifts of effect."  It avoids taking excess stress by doing so, not so sure it would avoid taking a single stress from standard evocation.  Though, like many things, it does appear to be open to varying interpretations.

Did find another debt reference though - temporary access to a sponsor costs one debt per spell in addition to any used to increase power.

Okay thanks for the answers so far, but it does bring up more questions.

The best way to emulate a reflex-boost via kinetomancy would be to use a spell to tag an aspect upon myself that I can use to give me +2 for relevant actions? Wouldn't that mean not only would I have to take stress to cast it but I'd have to pay a fate point every time I use it? Would that be more efficient than just taking a stress every time I use the spell as an instant action?

Your first use is free, but otherwise you would need to use a fate point.  Efficiency really depends on how easily you can replace fate points.    One common item is a potion which sets up multiple aspects or tags - which is easier to do with thaumaturgy than with evocation.  (Costs ~8 shifts for two sticky aspects.  Usually takes a few refinements to get there with evocation.)

The second question I have is how magic works with weaponry. If for example I had a longsword and used a kinetomancy rote to improve the force my blows deliver with said sword, would that be a direct improvement on the weapon's damage? Could I also make that longsword into a focus Item specifically for that? I ask because my character wants to have an edge when in melee against the supernatural nasties and having a weapon that hits REALLY hard would be a good idea.

You'd probably make it an enchanted item rather than focus.  Depending on your lore and specialties, you could have multiple aspects and multiple uses.  Each aspect would give you a +2 to your roll when used. 

This is not accounting for figuring out how to make the sword survive hitting a target like that. Unless it is a focus item, in which I think it gets some kind of plot immunity. Examples including when Dresden uses his wooden staff to lever open things that would ordinarily break the item, like bars and whatnot. (he explains that on top of using it as a physical lever he's using it mystically too. paraphrase)

Breaking an item is usually a compel...which allows you to buy out of it if you really don't want it broken.  It might also be a concession if you're getting hurt.

Edit:  Baseball bats are typically Weapon:2.

[NicholasQuinn]

@Nicholas:  Hmmm, that seems to a) be limited to "Dark Powers" and b) add one debt for "every 2 shifts of effect."  It avoids taking excess stress by doing so, not so sure it would avoid taking a single stress from standard evocation.  Though, like many things, it does appear to be open to varying interpretations.

Did find another debt reference though - temporary access to a sponsor costs one debt per spell in addition to any used to increase power.

My interpretation comes from the fact it states the practitioner must take a 4 shift mental hit to cast the spell and the sponsor could cover it for 2 debt. The 4 shifts should already include the base 1, unless of course it is referring to backlash. Its not necessarily correct, but that is where I was coming from.

The other reference could explain Harry's access to Summer Magic, and would be cheaper then temporarily buying the power. It might also explain Demonreach, as well. Nice find.

Edit: The title suggests only 'Dark Powers' would, but the term 'Sponsor' in the actual box, is far more general. I don't see why a Fae (or other creatures) wouldn't/couldn't likewise offer such assistance. Lea has eased Harry's pain, and it could be modelled in a way similar (as the Fae don't do things for free). The only non Grey (even remotely Dark) sponsor would be for Soulfire, although as it is the Black Ops angel offering it in the book serries, even thats debatable.

Sorry to go slightly off topic Rungok, but hopefully the talk has been useful to yourself and others, as well. As for your latest questions, Umbra seems to have covered it. Another option (for Enchanted item) would be to do it in a way akin to Warden Swords, and having the shift rating of the Enchantment temporarily replace the baseball bats weapon rating.

Or have a rote spell, linked to the focus item (the baseball bat), that gives manoeuvres. The advantage of this, is the baseball could be linked to the spell, meaning one focus item slot could give +1 control, and +1 power to the spell. However I think this is the least useful of the options available.