[Rules] Fists vs Weapons Knowledge

[Arcteryx]

Has there ever been a rationale that explains why it is that Fists requires a Martial Arts stunt to do what the Weapons skill can do with the Weapons Knowledge trapping?

I can understand intuitively why the stunt is required for fists, but why it wouldn't be the same for Weapons?

[Haru]

I think I can see the reasoning behind that.
A high fists skill does not necessarily mean you are a martial artist, you could have easily become good simply by being in lots and lots of fights. And fists is the skill for natural weapons (claws, fangs) for every critter out there. A werewolf for example is going to have a high fists skill in wereform, but he doesn't know anything about Martial Arts, if he isn't also trained in it. The weapons skill on the other hand implies training with a weapon for a long period of time.

That said, there is nothing stopping you from making it require a stunt, if you are more comfortable with that.

[Tallyrand]

I think I can see the reasoning behind that.
A high fists skill does not necessarily mean you are a martial artist, you could have easily become good simply by being in lots and lots of fights. And fists is the skill for natural weapons (claws, fangs) for every critter out there. A werewolf for example is going to have a high fists skill in wereform, but he doesn't know anything about Martial Arts, if he isn't also trained in it. The weapons skill on the other hand implies training with a weapon for a long period of time.

That said, there is nothing stopping you from making it require a stunt, if you are more comfortable with that.

I'm not sure that this is a correct rational only because much of the same can be said about the weapons skill.  A gang member with a penchant for baseball bats or championship dart thrower isn't likely to have any more specialized information about fighting styles than your typical high Fists fighter. 

Personally the Martial Arts stunt has been a problem for me ever since I started playing the game, it really does seem like you're paying a stunt for something  you should be able to do anyway.  One idea that my group has discussed but never really implemented was allowing the Martial Arts stunt to reduce the threshold for spin with Fists attacks by 2, personally I like this solution because it's flavorful and appropriate to the skill, but it is far from the only option.

[Sanctaphrax]

I view the Martial Artist stunt as an excuse to make Declarations in combat for random +2s.

And I try to keep in mind the fact that it has a +1 bonus attached.

[Arcteryx]

All points taken and noted... I don't really see any compelling reason why the Martial Arts stunt couldn't be applied the same way to Weapon; but conflict being what it is in the DFRPG, you might argue for the same for some social skills.

I read again the older posts that discussed this issue... part of it is how you cannot "disarm" an unarmed fighter; isn't this mechanically just a maneuver anyways? And being disarmed is really just a narrative effect? It is just the same as "Off Balance" or "Sand In His Eyes" or any +2 taggable aspect that you've thrown on your opponent?

One idea that my group has discussed but never really implemented was allowing the Martial Arts stunt to reduce the threshold for spin with Fists attacks by 2, personally I like this solution because it's flavorful and appropriate to the skill, but it is far from the only option.

I like the spin idea, but not in combination with the +1 to declare... that +1 is actually pretty buffed.

So what would you guys do, allow Fist to have a trapping of "Fist Knowledge" (for lack of a better term at the mo) or apply a "Martial Weapon" stunt requirement? The former seems easier... the latter would require you to examine Guns, social combat skills, ect ect ect.