Flaws and Weaknesses - help?

[GC1CEO]

I haven't seen anything in the book that I can use to model flaws and weaknesses in a character, example is the system used in the original World of Darkness system where you could take flaws to give you back points.

I have talking this over with some of my players (well more like play testers) and they thought about setting up some of the phase aspects like, however picking a negative aspect (with no positives) goes against the nature of how to pick phase aspects and likewise gives no point benefit in character creation.

Now I know that this is sometimes used for power gaming, take a bunch of flaws to powergame into a more powerful character then quietly ignoring those flaws in game play. However I would like to possibly offer the option, as long as it doesn't get out of control.

I like flawed characters myself, I thought of characters missing limbs, are deaf, blind, etc. In one case I have a blind friend who I find having characters who are blind for him make it easier for him to relate to playing the character.

Anybody else run into this and have any suggestions?

[devonapple]

If you have a truly limiting Aspect that is seldom Invoked but can constantly net you Fate Points from being Compelled, or that an antagonist can find out about and tag for bonuses, that sounds like it would be enough. I think Compels on an Aspect are far more in the spirit of the game: most anything with a Catch/Weakness usually happens to also be pretty tough.

The problem with coming up with a Vulnerability-type weakness in this system is not having it automatically take you out. The most elegant way to do this would be to buy a Catch which applies to your mundane defenses (Stress boxes), and then get those bonus points added back as Refresh. However, then you would go straight to Consequence each time you took Stress from such an attack, because your normal stress track wouldn't count (nasty, huh?).

No, Compels can carry the bulk of what Flaws and Weaknesses can do: they just can't let you buy more powers by getting Refresh back.

[Richard_Chilton]

A flaw is an aspect that can be easily compelled.  The more it is compelled (i.e. the more it effects you) the more FATE chips it gives you.

Richard

[Taran]

Aspects.  You want to only have one eye?  Make it an aspect and it will get compelled and lead to all sorts of interesting role-playing.  Other than that I can't really see having discounts in refresh other than gimping some supernatural powers in order to get a small discount.  (although that's already taken into consideration with things like IoP)

One I used recently is using True Shapeshifting (-4 refresh), but limiting it to animals only (discounted to -3).  So you save 1 refresh because you're limiting the power.

The warning here is that doing this CAN lead to Powergaming.  If the limit on the power isn't worth the discount, then you can end up with lots of extra powers for "free".

As I wrote this, others responed similarly...but I'll leave it as is.

[EdgeOfDreams]

The main sources of flaws and weakness with an actual mechanical benefit in this game are...

-Aspects, as explained by others above me
-The Catch on Toughness and Recovery powers (which really only matters if you have those powers to begin with)
-The Human Form "power" - a small rebate on your powers' cost in exchange for being unable to use them when not 'transformed' (this can cover things like "can only use my powers at night", "can only use my powers when wearing my magitek Iron Man suit", "can only use my powers at the full moon", etc.)
-The Item of Power discount - a small rebate on powers which are held in an item instead of being inherent to the character, because the item can (and SHOULD) get stolen or lost occasionally

You can also represent some flaws mechanically without actually calling them out as such.  For example, I run a sort of wizard character who isn't all that physically fit, because he spends all his time in his lab making potions and spells.  So, I took Athletics and Endurance at only 1 (he does get out and about occasionally), and I will never increase those scores no matter how many skill points he gets.  He also has NO score in Fists, Guns, or Weapons, being totally reliant on his spells.  Finally, I gave him an aspect, "All Brains, No Brawn", which I can invoke on mental rolls (often Scholarship or Lore), but have compelled against me to get in trouble when physical ability is needed.

[EdgeOfDreams]

I like flawed characters myself, I thought of characters missing limbs, are deaf, blind, etc. In one case I have a blind friend who I find having characters who are blind for him make it easier for him to relate to playing the character.

Anybody else run into this and have any suggestions?

Specifically for this situation, I would consider constructing a character who is blind but has the Supernatural Senses power, perhaps with an aspect like "A Different Way of Seeing the World".  That aspect could be compelled when his blindness gets him in trouble, but invoked for bonus or declarations when his special senses benefit him.

I've actually built a character for a hard of hearing (but not quite deaf) friend that I gave a custom power to be able to communicate mentally (think psychic, but not actually messing with people's minds, just talking in their heard).  I gave her the power for either no cost or -1 refresh (can't remember), and had her take an aspect related to being a deaf psychic that gets invoked/compelled as needed.  It works pretty well so far.

[ARedthorn]

I'm very familiar with Old-World of Darkness... it was the first system I ever ran in, or ran... and I frequently find myself missing the simplicity of it's flaws & extras.

I've also since learned how flawed (no pun intended, but I'll take it) it is to try and force that on other systems. It worked (mostly) with WW, some of the time, sorta (unless you got a player who liked breaking it, and that was most of mine). Don't try to mimic it here- it really, honestly, won't work... but you can make Fate work for you.

Aspects absolutely ARE the way to go-
As example, I have a not-quite-wizard I run who's missing his left hand (cut it off as part of a ritual to gain magical power), and rather bluntly gave him an aspect "Need a Hand?"
Suffice to say, it's going to get in the way ALL THE TIME. All sorts of physical complications arise, and since it's his left hand, he's really weak at defensive magic (he's from a similar school of magic as harry, which places such energies on the left side of the body).
Since it was part of a magical deal, circumventing it costs him a FP (to refuse the compel on the aspect), whether with prosthetics or magical effort.
On the upside, the aspect does carry a few beneficial connotations: he's used to working around his shortcomings, and has learned to work with others. It also really pisses him off to see another person's shortcomings taken advantage of (and that can go either way for him).

That said, there's no reason why you can't have an aspect that's completely and wholly negative, just like there's no reason you can't have one that's completely and wholly positive... the balance between aspects you can use and aspects that can be used against you is more about the character as a whole...
If every aspect you have is entirely negative, you'll earn lots of fate points, but have no way to spend them.
If every aspect you have is entirely positive, you'll have lots of opportunities to spend points, but find yourself perpetually broke.

You can pretty well look at any given aspect and figure out how positive or negative it is on a gut feel. If one's too negative, don't throw it out, just make sure you have some other aspect to balance it in the other direction.

[Sanctaphrax]

If you don't want to use aspects for some reason, you could look at Feeding Dependency and Human Form. A similar power might be able to simulate whatever it is that you want to simulate.

[noclue]

If you don't want to use aspects for some reason, you could look at Feeding Dependency and Human Form. A similar power might be able to simulate whatever it is that you want to simulate.

I can't imagine playing a blind guy or someone with a missing limb and not having an aspect about it. Come on, this is screaming aspect!

[Sanctaphrax]

It is the best answer.

But other people had already given it, and if the first five or six replies didn't convince him then a seventh was not going to be any more effective.

[Richard_Chilton]

And unlike oWoD, the reward (i.e the amount of FATE chips) is directly proportional to the affects of the "flaw" in game.

It's been a while, but if I had the books in front of me I could find seven points of flaws in the old White Wolf system that would never affect me in a LARP game.  Touch of Frost and Scent of the Grave (negatives to social challenges when dealing with normal humans), Poor Eye Sight (correctable) come to mind - not sure if that's 3F or 5 F...

There was a time when I could make a character 5 negative traits and seven flaws - secure in the knowledge that the ST would have work extra hard to make any of them count... Then again, back in those days I was ST who could screw a PC over a 1 point flaw, which balances out.

Which is an advantage of the FATE system.  If a negative aspect doesn't affect a PC then there's no FATE chips from it.  If you being colour blind or needing to wear glasses doesn't produce compels then you get no FATE chips.  It they do then you get FATE chips - which is better than the "gives up to seven free traits" that oWoD gave, and is on par with "If it effects play then the PC gets a bonus XP that game" of the nWoD.

Richard

[Silverblaze]

As a White Wolf guru (I own 90%+ of the books and played it since it's creation way back when) not the New World of Darkness so much...blech; I find the system very very good.

The merits and flaws do not translate to other systems well, including this one.  Stick to aspects and a few rebate powers and call it good enough.  Trust me, it helps keep sanity of all involved and game balance...always a plus.

[TheMouse]

I find myself agreeing with what a lot of other people are saying: An old WoD style merit/ flaw system is a poor fit for Fate.

Merits are served by a combination of Aspects, Stunts, and powers. All advantageous uses require fate points, either by reducing your available pool or by costing a per instance expenditure.

Flaws are served mostly by Aspects, but also by some of the things that complicate powers that other folks have mentioned (human form, etc). These give the player of the disadvantaged character fate points. This can be direct (your Aspect is a problem, so you get a fate point bribe) or indirect (your power is harder to use, so it's less expensive, so you have more available Refresh).

So, all of the things which in oWoD would be merits and flaws are tied directly into a fate point economy. Adding a secondary system that does much the same, but which doesn't interact with fate points would be adding needless redundancy for no real gain.

[ARedthorn]

...adding needless redundancy for no real gain.

This phrase makes me laugh. I also find it funny.

[TheMouse]

This phrase makes me laugh. I also find it funny.

I like redundancy humour. Tautologies can be very funny as well. Especially the funny tautologies.