[Spolers Through GS] Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders

[Mira]

Or, an alternate way of looking at is they were both giving accounts from different points in Margaret's life.  If Eb's account is true then both likely were.  Or Eb may have known quite a bit more about her towards the end what with being her father and the blackstaff both.  Or Luccio may have been giving her the benefit of the doubt seeing as there hadn't been a hearing yet while Eb wasn't.  Or it may have been the old "multiple eye-witnesses with no two accounts matching" syndrome.

Too many or's to say for sure at this point I think.

Yes, Margaret most likely did some bad things, or were they all that bad?  Yes, she rebelled against Eb, and she rebelled against the White Council, she ran with a rough crowd, most likely the Black Council for a while, ran with Justin, took up with Lord Raith and had a child by him.  No doubt she was punching her ticket to hell, old Chez confirms that, but she wasn't past redemption, that is the important part.  That is the part we never hear about, I think it was more than just falling in love with Malcolm Dresden, a lot has to do with the conception of Harry, the why of it, that last part is still very very vague.  I think the key to the whole series is Margaret's redemption and why she conceived Harry//

[vultur]

If Margaret was breaking the Laws of Magic on any regular basis, there would be consequences to her soul.  It can take various forms, from the Korean kid to Kemmler to Justin or Victor Sells.  But a misguided idealist who starts regularly breaking the Laws won't stay a misguided idealist.  She'll turn into one or another sort of monster.

So Kumori isn't "regularly breaking the Laws"? She strikes me as very "misguided idealist".

I think black-magic corruption has got to be way more complex than we've seen, or than Harry knows, both because of the Kumori bit* and because the way Cowl and, apparently, Kemmler are evil is very different from Sells or the Korean kid in PG or what's hinted about Bad-Future-Molly. Cowl is still in full possession of his mental resources, and not *pointlessly* cruel; Kemmler was capable of carrying out super-long-term plans and genius-level magical research - neither seem to have been suffering from the "addicted/enslaved" or even animalistic stuff we see from "classical" black-magic corruption.

*Granted, we don't know how long she's been doing it, but she's been working with Cowl for at least years by DB [they're together in GP], and Cowl is likely not the type to take a totally green unknown under his wing...

[Mira]

  I think that is why the White Council routinely chops off the heads of all young warlocks with Harry and Molly being the few exceptions.  It isn't just because so few full wizards have the guts to step up and take the responsibility and the possible punishment with them, but the belief that black magic is habit forming addictive magic, it corrupts completely and cannot be rehabbed.  So the White Council believes it is only the kindest thing, but the safest thing to do is to lop off the head before more people get hurt. 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Maggie Sr's Minimum age is 162 years old, when Harry was born. 

How does this datum fit with Luccio's observations in WN on the return of fertility being a major change for her once she got Alicia Nelson's body ?  Are we counting those as entirely part of her being enthralled ?

[Mira]

How does this datum fit with Luccio's observations in WN on the return of fertility being a major change for her once she got Alicia Nelson's body ?  Are we counting those as entirely part of her being enthralled ?

It doesn't, Luccio did give the impression that a wizard woman's fertile years were the same as that for a vanilla female.  However if that is true, and Margaret was between 25 and 45 when she had both Thomas and Harry, it says that wizard men have libido and stay fertile for a very long time, because that says Eb had to be well over 200 closer to maybe 250 when Margaret was born.  It also blows out of the water that Eb met his vanilla mortal wife during the French and Indian War and married her.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Yes, Margaret most likely did some bad things, or were they all that bad? 

Does Eb not say she broke Laws including the First ? Killing people with magic seems pretty bad to me.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

So Kumori isn't "regularly breaking the Laws"? She strikes me as very "misguided idealist".

I see no evidence that Kumori has actually misused wizard-magic in the ways that corrupt.  Or indeed that Cowl has; I would suspect Harry could have sensed it from the touch of their magic if they had.

*Granted, we don't know how long she's been doing it, but she's been working with Cowl for at least years by DB [they're together in GP]

is that confirmed in the text ?  I cannot recall, at the moment.

[Mira]

Does Eb not say she broke Laws including the First ? Killing people with magic seems pretty bad to me.

As we've seen with Harry, some "breakings" can be gray areas.  Truth to be told, we only have one side of the story on Margaret LeFay. 

[Mira]

I see no evidence that Kumori has actually misused wizard-magic in the ways that corrupt.  Or indeed that Cowl has; I would suspect Harry could have sensed it from the touch of their magic if they had.

  There was a greasy taste in the air around them which Harry associates with black magic, ether that or the Chicago air was bad that night.

[AcornArmy]

Does Eb not say she broke Laws including the First ? Killing people with magic seems pretty bad to me.

Eb was explaining why the Council, and he himself, were after Maggie. Her reasons for killing someone with magic were never discussed, and from the apparent timeline of everything else, the First Law breakage must have occurred after she took up with Lord Raith, and probably after she got involved with Outsiders. Maggie may not have been entirely under her own control when she killed someone. Or the situation may not have been simple or easy to define as good or evil, like when Harry killed Justin.

Myself, I'd rather withhold judgement until we find out what happened and why.

I see no evidence that Kumori has actually misused wizard-magic in the ways that corrupt.  Or indeed that Cowl has; I would suspect Harry could have sensed it from the touch of their magic if they had.

Harry does sense a residue of dark magic when Cowl blasts him with force outside of Bock's bookstore. He also mentions, though, that there's some residue of dark magic on his own magic, as well. As far as I can remember, Harry never specifically mentions sensing anything dark about Kumori's magic-- aside from the fact that she used necromancy to save Random Guy's life. But the necromancy she used did not have the feel of black magic to it, which is what clued Harry in that it was even possible to perform necromancy without it being black magic.

is that confirmed in the text ?  I cannot recall, at the moment.

It is. Cowl and Kumori confirm it themselves, or seem to, when they talk to Harry outside the bookstore.

It doesn't, Luccio did give the impression that a wizard woman's fertile years were the same as that for a vanilla female.  However if that is true, and Margaret was between 25 and 45 when she had both Thomas and Harry, it says that wizard men have libido and stay fertile for a very long time, because that says Eb had to be well over 200 closer to maybe 250 when Margaret was born.  It also blows out of the water that Eb met his vanilla mortal wife during the French and Indian War and married her.

We have WoJ on when Eb met Maggie LeFay's mother, so it's not wrong. I suspect that what's wrong is taking Luccio's comments and extrapolating them into a broad guess about all female wizards. I'm just guessing, but I suspect a woman's fertility may greatly depend upon the woman in question. A recent WoJ:

I’ve been wondering, is a magic-users longevity/ability to repair themselves due to their use of magic, or is it because they are able to access magic at all?
It’s because they /use/ magic.
....
And is the longevity tied to strength levels, as in do stronger wizards live longer?
Indeed. In the Dresden Files universe, magic is the essence of creation itself. Constant exposure to it through use changes the person who uses it in a number of ways, not all of them as obvious as physical recovery and longevity. The more exposure, the more dramatic the changes.

So, it may be that a woman who uses a great deal of magic on a fairly regular basis can retain her fertility for quite some time. The more magic she uses, the more the "essence of creation" affects her. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me that one of the effects could be a longer period in which she could create life herself.

[Mira]

So, it may be that a woman who uses a great deal of magic on a fairly regular basis can retain her fertility for quite some time. The more magic she uses, the more the "essence of creation" affects her. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me that one of the effects could be a longer period in which she could create life herself

There is a little problem of biology, though I guess that goes out the window because we are talking fantasy verses reality, but still there is a problem older female verses older male.  Men make sperm constantly, yes, the sperm count goes down and the libido slows as a man goes into his elder years, but still he should be able to father a child under the right conditions.  With women it is different, a woman is born with all the eggs she is going to ever have in her ovaries when she is born.  A woman's best years to reproduce are from her late teens to mid-thirties, after that is isn't so much a libido issue as her eggs begin to age.  The older the egg is when it is fertilized the greater the chance for genetic breakdown in the egg and birth defects.  So while women do have healthy children sometimes well into their fifties, it becomes rarer and they are taking greater risks with themselves and their baby. 

Back to fantasy, I can see the period of fertility being extended for wizard women to the point where their peak child baring years might be from forty to sixty or even seventy years of age.  I think what threw Luccio off was not just being in an immature [for a female wizard] female body, and having to deal with fertility issues again, but libido, she now had the sex drive of a young woman and not of a middle aged woman who had gone through menopause.

[AcornArmy]

There is a little problem of biology, though I guess that goes out the window because we are talking fantasy verses reality, but still there is a problem older female verses older male.
....
Back to fantasy, I can see the period of fertility being extended for wizard women to the point where their peak child baring years might be from forty to sixty or even seventy years of age.  I think what threw Luccio off was not just being in an immature [for a female wizard] female body, and having to deal with fertility issues again, but libido, she now had the sex drive of a young woman and not of a middle aged woman who had gone through menopause.

You just have to assume that part of the changes the "essence of creation" makes in a female wizard is that her body produces new eggs. Or that the original eggs duplicate themselves, or something. Or even that they simply go into a holding pattern, remaining viable and inside the woman until they get fertilized. We're talking about the force that supposedly created the universe from nothing here; surely it can allow a woman to maintain a constant state of health and fertility, if put to that use.

[Mira]

You just have to assume that part of the changes the "essence of creation" makes in a female wizard is that her body produces new eggs. Or that the original eggs duplicate themselves, or something. Or even that they simply go into a holding pattern, remaining viable and inside the woman until they get fertilized. We're talking about the force that supposedly created the universe from nothing here; surely it can allow a woman to maintain a constant state of health and fertility, if put to that use.

Yes, least there be too many wizardlings running about the world.  Or just have suspend belief on this one.

[AcornArmy]

Yes, least there be too many wizardlings running about the world.  Or just have suspend belief on this one.

Thinking of the way Jim put it-- "Constant exposure to it through use changes the person who uses it in a number of ways, not all of them as obvious as physical recovery and longevity. The more exposure, the more dramatic the changes."-- makes me wonder about extreme cases. There have to be examples of wizards who use massive amounts of magic every day, for one reason or another. Maybe because they're working on a project that takes years to complete, or because they have powerful wards to be maintained, or some sort of responsibility which requires that they use a lot of magic every day-- something. But there have surely been cases like that in the past.

So I wonder what some of these dramatic changes are that can occur. Early onset of the Sight, the precognitive ability that Harry demonstrated on Demonreach, seems like one possibility. We already know that physical changes occur, because they're the two most well-known effects: the ability to completely recover from injuries over time, and a greatly extended lifespan. All wizards get these, to some degree, so it seems like they must be some of the first effects to occur.

And if those are the less dramatic, even least dramatic of the possible changes, it really makes me wonder what some of the others might be. Changes in size, hair color, eye color? New senses? Further alterations of the body? Producing unintentional effects upon one's surroundings?

Another question is whether or not the use of magic without language or in one's native language could accelerate these effects, at least on the wizard's mind. This could be dangerous, since apparently it's possible for a wizard to burn their mind out by doing that, but we know that it can be done without frying your brain, because Harry did it in Fool Moon. So I wonder if using magic that way for small things, and then for slightly stronger spells, would increase the alterations magic can have on someone's mind.

Also, a third question based on the last one: if Harry were to use soulfire while speaking a spell in English, or not speaking words at all, would it still be as dangerous? Or would the fact that his own soul was mixed with the magic do something to let it flow through his mind without as great a risk of injury?

[Ona]

Really interesting thread - congrats folk!

It also blows out of the water that Eb met his vanilla mortal wife during the French and Indian War and married her.

How so?  The WoJ quoted says Maggie's mom was a mortal (not vanilla mortal) and died in 1810.  Eb & Merlin were "young bucks" (about 50 years old) during the French-Indian war, and fought on opposite sides.  (That's recent WoJ contemplating writing a short story about it).  Especially if Maggie's mom was vanilla mortal, Eb would almost have to meet her in & around the war to have any hope of having a child with her. 

Secondly, if Maggie had to be born before 1810 (which is a given, since she can't have been born *after* her mother died), and she had Harry in 1973, (& Thomas apx 7 years earlier), then we have to accept that Maggie was still fertile at no less than 160. 

I'm not sure how to explain Luccio.  I'll have to go back and re-read that scene.  Iirc, it was more about desire/lust, than about reproduction.  But...  well, yeah, I need to re-read.  In any case, there can be absolutely no doubt that Maggie was fertile at that age.  (Biologically, my best guess is that use of magic keeps the eggs from deteriorating.  When I tried for children in my 40's, I conceived easily, but couldn't carry past 12 weeks - my eggs were too old.  If I was a Wizard, presumably I wouldn't have that problem.  And most women, oddly enough, have too many eggs left at the onset of menopause.  In the few years before it kicks in, the body begins throwing as many out as possible.)

If we accept that Maggie would have no good reason to want the council to know that she was breaking the laws, then one wonders how the council found out.

Agree, completely.  In fact, there are two things that bother me about the time line, though I don't have any doubts about it's basic integrity.  During her dinner with Eb, she was clearly not being hunted.  After that dinner, the WC thought she'd come to grief in the Nevernever, (well, maybe except for Eb).  Five years pass, and when she turns on her (bad) allies, she's also hunted by the WC as a warlock.  This seems like a major inconsistency to me.  If they thought she was lost in the Nevernever, how could they decide she's a warlock?  And if she was a busy little law breaker, under Raith's control or not, how could they think she was lost in the Nevernever?

The other is her death.  I just can't see any new mother *wanting* to leave an infant child.  And some of the theories in this thread are WAY convoluted.  Still, it's clear that Malcolm and Harry were in some way her redemption.  And Occams razor suggests that she was shielding against Raith (& others) while on the run, but couldn't hold a shield and have a baby at the same time.

Last bit of my two cents - boy did I stretch it out - is that I'm definitely in the group that thinks Maggie was a thorn in the council's side, running around risking death in the Nevernever, talking to minor demons, but not crossing the line, for most of her life. 

Oh and I think it was a brilliant guess that she's the one who found the doorway to Outside in the far reaches of the Nevernever...  though I'm not convinced she *did* much of anything with Outsiders.  Just by finding it, she made it vulnerable.

All right, my two cents is now copper wire...

Ona