Weapon ratings for flashbangs and tear gas

[Haru]

I've just put numbers on flashbangs for my campaign:
It is targeted with weapons, dodged with athletics, as any other attack. If the attack connects, it becomes a block:5 on the target, that reduces by 1 every exchange. That way it becomes more likely for the target to beat the block, but it is not too weak either.

[zenten]

Yeah, I'm using the rules for special weapons.  I just wasn't sure what to set the "damage" at.  Since then I read the bit about grenade damage being at least 4, and I figure that's a good number for them.

[Sanctaphrax]

Weapon 4 seems like a lot.

Are flash-bangs really as effective as fragmentation grenades at taking people out of fights?

[UmbraLux]

Why do you need "damage" for any of these?  Seems to me there are better ways to model it.

[zenten]

4 is the difficulty on the roll to avoid getting an aspect/to shake the aspect off.  Getting taken out is not a valid compel of that aspect.

[Sanctaphrax]

Ah, okay.

I think I'm misremembering the rules for special effect attacks. I need to reread them.

[ARedthorn]

I'd say 4 is about right... the difference between a frag grenade and a concussion grenade is the shell, not the size of the charge... a frag grenade has a metal casing that sends out shrapnel, a concussion grenade can have a shell thin enough that it goes to powder, or even have a shell made of cardboard (I kid you not).

Flash-bangs have similarly powerful charges, but are encased in such a way as to spend all their energy on light and sound (using magnesium oxide powder for the flash, and shaped vents to produce the bang without fragmenting the shell). The shell can be recharged/reused btw.

I'd go so far as to make it sticky for a couple rounds- first round gets tagged for free, every round after that requires a FP compel against the blindness.
Bizarre as it may sound, flash-bangs are harder to get a hold of and more expensive than a basic frag grenade (due to difficulty of manufacture, and rarity of the item compared to frag grenades... neither are available on the open market, but I could make a homemade frag with the right chemicals, if I were stupid or good enough to try; I couldn't come close to making a homemade flash-bang).

If more than one goes off in the same round (easily possible), then make it a single attack and increase the weapon value of the main attack by 2, and the sticky by 1 for every extra flash-bang.

[Taran]

Are flash bangs 1 target or are they 1 zone?  Tear gas, I assume, is one zone.

[zenten]

Flashbang would be more than one target.  I'm not inclined to even restrict them to one zone.

[devonapple]

The thing with making the Flashbang grenade weapon:4 is if you opt not to use the special maneuver option, it is still dealing 4 stress.

I'd rate a flash-bang as Weapon 1, maybe 2, and a Tear Gas grenade as 2 or 3.

[Taran]

I'm not sure, in the case of things like flashbangs, that you'd have a choice to opt out of the maneuver.  It's kind of what they're designed for.  The extra shifts on the attack are the only damage they do.  That's how I'd run it anyways.

[devonapple]

Some folks may prefer to deal simple stress, and some will be using the Maneuver to set up a target to take Stress damage anyway, but I can see balancing out a higher Weapon rating with the restriction that it is only to be used as a maneuver.

[zenten]

The thing with making the Flashbang grenade weapon:4 is if you opt not to use the special maneuver option, it is still dealing 4 stress.

I'd rate a flash-bang as Weapon 1, maybe 2, and a Tear Gas grenade as 2 or 3.

I didn't read that as "optional" in the sense that the person using it can decide if they want it to be stress dealing or manoeuvre creating, but "optional" in the sense that the GM/group can choose whether or not to use this rule, like Spin.

And anyway, since a grenade is a minimum a 4 stress weapon I don't see the big game balance issue.

[ARedthorn]

Make it weapon 1 or 2, and anyone in the vicinity with an athletics or endurance of 3 can almost always resist it, no contest. Not, IMO, appropriate.
Also, I'd say zone- anyone outside the zone either has a barrier in between them and the grenade, or enough distance to reduce it's effectiveness by default (of it being a new zone).

As for the meaning of "optional rule"... I'm also in the camp of "This means this rule can be applied instead of direct stress for weapon damage, as appropriate only."

It's inappropriate for an incendiary grenade to do special damage, so it can only do direct stress.
It's inappropriate for a flash-bang to do direct stress, so it does special- with <Dazed> as the aspect, and only overflow going to damage.
It's appropriate for a shotgun to do either, depending on the load (buckshot/slugs vs bean-bag rounds, for example), but the player MUST define which he's doing, and stick with it (I'd require, at minimum, a supplemental action to switch).

If a player wants to do direct damage with a flash-bang, he'd have to come up with a pretty good description of how that works for me to even consider it.

[HumAnnoyd]

I don't mean to derail the OT but I was running a game this weekend and the question came up about what damage a 20lbs sledge hammer would do.  I ruled it would be a 2 but this seemed to upset at least one of my players.  What do you guys think?