Weapon ratings for flashbangs and tear gas

[zenten]

So, what would the rules be for these?

I get that I should be using the rules for "Special-Effects Attacks" on page 326.  I also think they should be affecting a large area (and the roll to hit basically means nothing).  But what would the "damage" for them be (as in the roll to overcome)?  And would the tear gas be something that you have to keep on rolling against when you succeed, until you leave the area?

[JayTee]

I would treat them as Blocks vs Alertness, or Weapons: 2-3 Mental Attacks.

Yes, Mental, as they work by screwing with or overloading the senses. That seems like a non-physical attack to me.

[UmbraLux]

My take:
 - flashbangs apply Blinding Flash to a zone and the GM immediately compels everyone in the zone
 - tear gas applies Debilitating Gas to a zone which is also immediately compelled and potentially compelled again on subsequent exchanges if used indoors
 - concussion grenades apply Stunning Explosion to a zone and is compelled immediately

Any of them could also be modeled as a block but the compel gives more flexibility on specific results.

[sinker]

Yes, Mental, as they work by screwing with or overloading the senses. That seems like a non-physical attack to me.

You should probably go read the section on mental conflict (YS217-219).

How hard do you want them to be to overcome? Seems to me like it's pretty hard for your average person to shrug those off, so I would probably go weapon:3 or 4 (average skill plus very good roll to succeed).

[JayTee]

You should probably go read the section on mental conflict (YS217-219).

I never saw reason why Mortals couldn't deal mental stress by mundane means. Non-lethal weaponry seems to be an very good way to do this.

Thats just how I would run it, so its an opinion, not a fact.

[sinker]

I understand I just suspect that you'll get a better understanding of mental stress if you thoroughly read that section. A lot of people have the same sense of mental stress (that it is equivalent to exhaustion/fatigue) but when you read that section it becomes clear that mental stress actually represents your sense of self, your confidence in who you are and how you work. Read it, you'll see what I mean.

[devonapple]

I never saw reason why Mortals couldn't deal mental stress by mundane means. Non-lethal weaponry seems to be an very good way to do this.

One could justify the use of similar techniques to supplement a psychological campaign to break someone. Tear gas, flashing lights, noise, and any number of other discomforts can help erode a target's psyche and inflict Mental Stress and Consequences, but that's going to have to be part of a long-term Intimidation/torture conflict, and not a battlefield maneuver.

If we're talking battlefield usage, these things are only doing physical stress or (more appropriately) laying Maneuvers that make it easier to Take Out or force Concessions upon its targets. You're not fundamentally changed by suffering a blast of tear gas. A player can TAKE a Mental Consequence to absorb the Stress in such a conflict, but that is a player choice about how their character is responding to the experience, and not a mandatory result of the tear-gassing/flash-bang/etc.

Ultimately, someone who got tear-gassed isn't going to recover more effectively by seeing a psychologist, which would be the benchmark of a Mental or Social Consequence (which should be used to inform the kinds of things that can cause Mental Stress).

[JayTee]

Hm, perhaps not mental stress then, but physical stress defended against by Discipline.

Seem more in line with the rules?

[zenten]

Hm, perhaps not mental stress then, but physical stress defended against by Discipline.

Seem more in line with the rules?

By the rules it doesn't inflict stress at all.  It inflicts an aspect that is difficult to remove in combat time.  I'm trying to figure out the difficulty to make that roll.

[JayTee]

Ah, I misunderstood the question then, (and a few game rules apparently!) My apologies for clogging up the thread with my comments.

[ways and means]

Out of curiosity would a gas mask provide immunity to the effects or just a taggable aspect?

[zenten]

Out of curiosity would a gas mask provide immunity to the effects or just a taggable aspect?

I'm pretty sure it would give immunity to tear gas.  You might be able to Declare an aspect on someone who's using a gas mask of like "limited sight range" or "this thing is very hot and sweaty" if it would be relevant though.

[devonapple]

Gas Mask would be a Resources Declaration which should place an Aspect that can be Removed or Stolen. But while possessed, it would give immunity (basically, invoking for effect).

Now, note that sometimes Gas Mask can be a liability, making it harder to notice things, so I could see a canny (and already immune) supernatural type tagging those Aspects for a bonus, or to justify a sneak attack. This is why I would retain it as an Aspect.

[polkaneverdies]

Quote "JayTee:
Ah, I misunderstood the question then, (and a few game rules apparently!) My apologies for clogging up the thread with my comments." Quote

Don't worry about it jaytee. There are many rules that have a wide range of interpretations. If someone is soliciting advice here don't feel bad for offering it. The worst that happens is they don't go with your advice or they disagree with something you say. As long as everyone is polite it remains a beneficial discussion. You were still helpful to offer an opinion in the first place.

[ARedthorn]

There's a specific reference in the book (YS- can't seem to find it right now though) to special attacks, like tasers and the like, that work like a weapon attack, but their weapon rating (and weapon rating only) goes to creating an aspect. Bonus from accuracy still goes to stress (because getting shot in the chest with a taser will knock you out... getting shot in the face with a taser will knock you out AND hurt). Far as I can tell, the rule is more or less an extension of Overflow from YS214.

This might be the most appropriate choice for what you want to do with flash-bangs, since they can still cause lasting injuries if you're close to them when they go off (overpressure popping eardrums, burns from the magnesium flare portion, etc). Make the weapon rating good enough to affect most anyone who's not able to take cover AND look away, then 1 higher to make it sticky/persistent for a single use. Accuracy allows you to land it at someone's feet, which would cause stress as well as the effect.

Concussion grenades, btw, kill within 10 meters, almost as a given... definitely not stun material IRL. Video games got that one wrong. Stun grenades = flash-bangs. Concussion grenades = frag grenades without the shrapnel.

Tear gas... I'd run as pure maneuver. How long a given cloud lasts is so variable (dispersal due to open-ness of area, wind, etc) that letting extra shifts go to persistence seems appropriate.