Weapons and the law

[TheMouse]

Just wondering how hard is it too get guns in the US, for a story point of view in the UK I require contacts 2 resources 2 to get illegal fire arms (pistols) in terms of skill how hard would it be to gets guns in the US? Out of curiosity do they really sell guns in supermarkets in the US?

It depends entirely on where you are. In some places it's harder to get a beer than a shotgun. In others you have to go through a number of hoops to be sure that you're licensed and not a criminal, then you've got to wait a certain period, etc.

It also depends on exactly what sort of gun you're looking to get in the specific spot. Pistols are generally harder to get than shotguns, because pistols are much easier to hide and thus easier to use for crimes.

Check out the NRA web site. It's got a pretty extensive guide to gun laws by region. Pay particular attention to "shall issue" versus "may issue," as that makes quite a difference in how the different states handle gun acquisition.

As for getting guns illegally, I don't know about that. I imagine that you could follow the advice for city creation and Google [city name] + "illegal firearms" or the like.

My guess is that the price is going to vary a lot by what type of gun you're talking about. A new, high quality pistol purchased legally can set you back in the ballpark of a grand. An older revolver (but not old enough to gain value as an antique) is much less expensive. I would tend to imagine that the price you'd pay when purchasing such a thing illegally would tend to scale with the legal price roughly, unless the seller was desperate to offload them quickly.

[Paynesgrey]

Politics, including opinions about the value and merit of any gun laws, be they strict or lax, is a No Go.  Verbotten Lieb and all that.  A plain statement explaining Chicago, Holland, or Texas gun laws is fine for purposes of providing background information for storytellers, but it must NOT contain personal editorial regarding any perceived merit or flaw in that law. 

"The city of Snarkopolis gun laws are such that XYZ" is fine.  You don't walk into a pawn shop or sporting goods store and legally buy a handgun in Chicago.  Into any shop, for that matter.  So Storytellers benefit from knowing that sort of detail.  But whether that's Constitutional, wise, foolish, whatever, is No Go Territory.  On the map, it's marked "Here there be Moderators.

The same goes for critique of organizations pushing this or that sociopolitical agenda on either side of any sociopolitical issue.  I'm going to ask everyone who's gone into editorial opinion on gun laws, be you Right or be you Left, Conservative, Progressive, Masticationalist, whatever... to head back to your post and kindly edit that material out.  Same goes with intent on the 2nd Amendment.  I've got lots of opinions on that, based on the body of law the framers were using and their own writings on the matters of states, sovereignty, and tasty morning beverages.

   

That's me, keeping those opinions for discussion elsewhere.  We can't go there people, it's Politics and it leads to pissing matchs of the sort that Jim and Iago don't want in their house. 

Thank you for your cooperation.

Would you like to know more?  Click here for the link to the rules...

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.0.html

Specifically,

Forbidden Discussion Items: 
Include, but are not limited to:
Theft of intellectual property
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[BumblingBear]

It's my humble opinion that we should probably start this thread over again for discussing this topic.

The cat's kind of out of the bag for this one.  I don't have a good feeling about it.  Even if we all edit our posts, -somebody- is going to jump in a month from now, read something that rubs them the wrong way, post something TT-y and possibly cause problems.

I suggest the OP or another poster start the thread over again with "revisited" or something in the title and leave this one die.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Just wondering how hard is it too get guns in the US, for a story point of view in the UK I require contacts 2 resources 2 to get illegal fire arms (pistols) in terms of skill how hard would it be to gets guns in the US? Out of curiosity do they really sell guns in supermarkets in the US?

In nearly every state you can go down to Wal-Mart and pick up a rifle or shotgun and ammo, pay the price, and walk out.  You may have to show ID to prove you're old enough.  "Old Enough" varies by state but is always <= 21.  Handguns have a waiting period and background check (no felons, no crazy people).  I'm not sure how long, I haven't bought one since the waiting period came into effect.  Three to fifteen days I think.  Concealed/open carry and transportation is another story entirely and varies extremely widely by state; no two are exactly the same.

Yes, they sell guns in supermarkets if you consider super wal-marts and such to be supermarkets since they have roughly 1/3 of the store dedicated as a supermarket and the other 2/3 selling the same things the non-super versions sell.

[Masurao]

I've gone and removed my own posts on this subject matter and, seeing as I am somewhat the instigator of this whole mess, I apologize for spouting my views here, in this inappropriate place.

To make up for it, I can tell you what I know about Dutch laws

If you join a gun club, you can legally purchase weapons after being a member for 1 year, this includes rifles. Of course, there is a background check and such.

A friend of mine works for the Koninklijke Marechausee, sort of the Military Police, and while he is allowed to bring his sidearm home with him, he is never equiped with more than 9 (nine!) bullets at any time, unless the brass sees reason for it.

[BumblingBear]

I've gone and removed my own posts on this subject matter and, seeing as I am somewhat the instigator of this whole mess, I apologize for spouting my views here, in this inappropriate place.

To make up for it, I can tell you what I know about Dutch laws

If you join a gun club, you can legally purchase weapons after being a member for 1 year, this includes rifles. Of course, there is a background check and such.

A friend of mine works for the Koninklijke Marechausee, sort of the Military Police, and while he is allowed to bring his sidearm home with him, he is never equiped with more than 9 (nine!) bullets at any time, unless the brass sees reason for it.

This is all very interesting.  Thank you for educating me.  I like it when I can learn a few things every day.

[Richard_Chilton]

A big, very big part of the Dresden Files is "The Mortals can't know".  That means that if you're walking around loaded for bear the mortal authorities will want to know why - and you can't tell them.

Or if you do tell them (like Butters did) you could end up in a rubber room (like Butters did).

Keeping everything (including weapons) on the QT is one of the challenges that makes this game so fun to play.

Richard

[Nostri]

I know in rural New York state at least (note this isn't New York City, I only point it out because I know way too many people that aren't from around here that get seriously confused that the state is much bigger then the city) it's legal to get a longarm or a shotgun at 18 if you also have passed a firearm safety class which is usually accompanied by getting a hunting license. And assuming you own the gun legally you can carry them around in your car as long as they're unloaded and the ammo's somewhere else (usually the trunk) and since it's usually assumed you're out hunting....something most cops won't say anything about the guns unless there was recently a shooting or they're asking if you got anything while you were out. Walmarts and some sporting goods stores around here will sell basically any kind of rifle or shotgun and the ammo needed to shoot them though I can't say if there's a waiting period since I got all my guns second hand as gifts and such. Fully automatic weapons aren't sold however and are generally illegal.

Pistols are harder to get and more illegal to own requiring permits and background checks and waiting periods since they're viewed more as weapons for killing people then for use as hunting implements. The ammo's easier to come by though.

Bows and crossbows are legal to own and shoot though you'll likely get odd looks carrying them and some people won't recognize a traditional bow for what it is as they've only seen the more advanced compound bows with the pulleys and laser range finders and such.

As far as I know most of the rural US has similar outlooks on guns if not the actual laws. Mind a lot of that is more anecdotal evidence then actual readings of the laws involved. I also know that when you get closer to bigger towns and cities the local police tend to get more attentive as to what's legal for you to be toting around then out in the country.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I also know that when you get closer to bigger towns and cities the local police tend to get more attentive as to what's legal for you to be toting around then out in the country.

There's also "what's legal" vs "what will get you hassled by a cop" to consider.  Arizona has unlicensed open/concealed carry, for instance, but that's not to say you won't catch the occasional bit of heat for having a six-shooter on your hip like in the old west.  If you just want a good resource to check state laws, try OpenCarry.org.  The site is pretty politically motivated but the maps can tell you at a glance which state has what sort of laws.

[Vairelome]

In general, the cops in urban areas are most hostile to civilians packing heat on the street.  Cops in the suburbs or especially rural America are a good deal less so.  The reasons are political and cultural, and not really relevant to these boards.

This is even more true in Chicago than most other large cities in the U.S.  I'd say Chicago and Washington, D.C. are the two cities where (official) private gun ownership is least common and the local police are most opposed to firearms in civilian hands.

Also, in the U.S., gun laws are generally organized on a state-by-state basis.  So if your campaign takes place entirely within the state of, say, Missouri, then the same gun laws will apply no matter where you go.  Even within a state, though, enforcement and/or attention from the police will vary somewhat by jurisdiction.  Some states require gun licenses; others don't.  The states that require licenses may automatically grant them once you've filled out the necessary paperwork and passed a background check (generally speaking, convicted felons are not permitted to own guns); or they may grant or withhold licenses on the judgment of the local county Sheriff.  (The former are called "shall issue" states; the latter are "may issue" states, describing whether or not the local Sheriff has the power to deny a license at his discretion.)

Another factor to consider is time.  If your game is set in the present year, then all you have to do is look up the current laws.  But if your game is set several years or even decades ago, both laws and attitudes could be substantially different.  For instance, Britain has essentially banned private gun ownership, and this has been true for a few decades.  However, if you were setting your game in Britain during the early twentieth century, around the time of WWI, let's say, guns would be everywhere in British society.

[Richard_Chilton]

Call of Cthulhu has some great books detailing Britain in three time periods - 1880 (Cthulhu by Gaslight), 1920-30s (Cthulhu), and various editions of Cthulhu now.  In them they point to the paradox of British gun laws in the past:
1) You didn't need a license for many sorts of guns.
2) This didn't mean that you could walk around with guns.

Putting it another way, not needing a license to carry a gun means that you aren't licensed to carry it, leaving decisions up to the local law.  Any police officer who sees a character with a weapon could decided that he was "carrying a weapon dangerous to the public peace" and arrest him - and later decide if he was going to charge the character.

Carrying rifles in the country side was usually okay, unless you were on someone else's estate - then it was clear that you were there for poaching.  Carry a weapon on a city street and you better have a reason to have it or the police can and will act.  Of course, since things were more class conscious back then, the better you were dressed the better your chances of carrying it.  "His Lordship" might be taking a gun to show someone, but those disreputable looking people were probably up to no good.


In Canada, you can still be charged with carrying a weapon dangerous to the public peace.  Private citizens have a very hard time getting permission to transport a gun if they aren't going to a shooting club or hunting, but the law says "weapon" not gun.  Carrying a crowbar when you don't have a reason to, or a baseball bat when you aren't heading to a ball game, or anything along those lines could get you picked up - or not.  It all depends on if a cop feels that you having that item right there and then is dangerous to the public peace.

This has led to some interesting court cases.  Locally, there's a case from a couple of years ago that sticks in my mind.  A guy who went to a bar with a pair of spiked hooks - they were tools that you hook into logs to move them.  He got picked up and charge for carrying weapons and on his court date he represented himself and explained to the judge that they were tools, not weapons, and then reached into his coat and brought out a pair of them to show the judge.  Him flashing them, well, it caught the attention of everyone in the courtroom.  Luckily he agreed to give them to a bailiff and then judge explained that things have context.
In the woods those items were tools.  Working around logs in general they were tools.  In a bar or a courtroom they were weapons.  No, the item didn't change, but the probable use for them changed even if he hadn't intended to use them as weapons.  All of which meant that he was guilty as charged.

Carrying a walking stick is okay in my city.  Carry a walking staff and the police might want to talk to you about the staff.  Odds are they'll just talk and if you carry enough they'll come to know you one of the harmless guys who carry staffs.  Walk around carrying a 2x4 and they will definitely talk to you and if they don't hear a good story they will take you into custody "to sort things out".  Get caught carrying a knife of a certain size and you be charged.  Carry a different size one and if the police see it as 'dangerous to the public peace' you will be charged.

Here's a web page that does a good job of explaining the non-gun weapons laws in Canada.  http://ejmas.com/tin/2004tin/tinart_agnew_0104.html

Richard

[Paynesgrey]

Internally, the gun laws can vary within any given state.  (Talking about the US here.)

Pennsylvania has a set of state level requirements regarding ownership and carry.  It's a "Shall Issue" state where if you apply for a permit to carry, the state must have a reason to deny you such as a record felony, domestic abuse, involuntary mental institutionalization or something that the Sheriff could take to court to say he had solid cause to think a person was a danger, such as a guy screaming into his cell phone that "I'm getting my permit right now, then I'm gonna get a gun and come shoot your cheatin' ass."  There's a mandatory background check for firearm purchases, but no waiting period other than how long it takes for the instant check.  The fee is about $15, just enough to defray the costs of the paperwork.

Pennsylvania's state constitution has a supremacy clause which prohibits local jurisdictions from enacting restrictions on gun ownership and carry which would superscede or contradict the established State laws.  That means Philadelphia or Pittsburgh can't enact a waiting period or ban on ownership, purchasing or carry, nor could they go the other way and declare that no permit was required for concealed carry.  So a permit to carry is good anywhere in PA outside a business where the owner says "no guns in my place" or various government buildings, schools, and the like.  As a result, you know where you stand as far as the law goes when you're in the anywhere in PA. 

California, on the other hand, allows municipalities to enact their own laws, so long as they are not less strict than the state standards.  So you could be in one county where it's legal to carry with a permit, and drive through a town where you're breaking the law the moment you pass through the corner of it's jurisdiction.  To carry or even transport firearms safely and legally in that state, you must literally research the laws of every county, city, town or borough which you expect to travel through.  So if your characters are traveling in one of these states, your GM has a golden opportunity to hand you a real Bag of Dicks if he's that sort of nasty minded GM that's always the most fun to game with.

Many states have reciprocity agreements with other states that hold the same standards for a permit to carry.  15 or so states will honor my Pennsylvania permit, no questions asked. But driving thought the states between those states could be a problem.  In some states, you might be fine simply unloading and securing the weapon in a locked box in your trunk with the ammo stored separately... but in others like Maryland, even that would be No Go.  Monster hunting roadtrip a la Supernatural? See above, Bag of Dicks if your GM is so inclined.

GM's can also use (and gleefully abuse) the fact that the Law isn't always what happens when the police are involved.  One cop might ignore the sawed off (Federal felony) shotgun behind the bar in Old Lady Johnson's house so long as the owners keep their nose clean.  And another cop might decide to be a Plot Complication even though the player characters might be toeing the line of the law in the instance.

As has been noted earlier in this thread, what's legal and what this or that police officer thinks is legal aren't always the same thing.  I was jacked up for Walking While Goth during the post-Columbine 20-20 fueled fear mongering about "the Gothic movement, violent and black!" and the "dangerous Goth Gangs..." and I was given the third degree about why I was carrying.  I replied politely that I have the required permit.  The policeman claimed it wasn't valid in Pittsburgh, and I responded politely that the commonwealth's constitution forbade local bans.  I didn't mouth off or give him attitude, but I made it plain I was aware of the law and my rights in the state.  He wasn't happy about it and said so... but he didn't have much choice unless he wanted to try to fabricate a crime right there. 

Now, on the flip side, almost every other cop I've talked to were fine, once they saw my permit.  I've had a few particularly sharp officers spot that I was carrying (holster lines, don't you know) and inquire if I had a permit.  I'm sure they were eyeballing my attitude and demeanor as much as the permit (is he sweating, stammering, otherwise worried about our interest?).  And these encounters always ended amicably, usually with both parties scribbling down the address of a good range or shop with good prices.  So, GM's, apply the Gamer version of the Skippy test and ask yourselves "do either of these scenarios bring to mind plot complications that make me giggle for more than 8 seconds? And will it make my Players cry for more than 8 minutes?"

So if a Storyteller wants to use gun laws as an opportunity for complications, or an opportunity for his characters... and villains... to gear up, it's easy to check a given state or country's gun laws.  Wikipedia can give you general info most any country and state.  For those setting games in the US, you can check out the NRA's website.  Like the Open Carry site, it is a site belonging to a sociopolitical faction pushing it's own agenda (and we'll not discuss that agenda here)... but it does have a convenient map where you can check the specifics of any state's gun laws.  So your Chicago based characters can run into a whole world of complications and gun culture shock if they head to Dallas Texas or Allentown, PA, and vice-versa.

And remember, a gun permit won't generally let you carry a concealed sword, axe or mace.  That Warden's sword could land 'em in a heap of trouble even if the players have a "concealed weapons permit."

[Pbartender]

Here is pdf of the gun laws in Illinois.  Of special note for Dresden Files RPG is Sec. 24-2 "Exemptions", and especially Sec. 24-2(a)(5)...

Persons licensed as private security contractors, private detectives, or private alarm contractors, or employed by an agency certified by the Department of Professional Regulation, if their duties include the carrying of a weapon under the provisions of the Private Detective, Private Alarm, and Private Security Act of 1983, while actually engaged in the performance of the duties of their employment or commuting between their homes and places of employment, provided that such commuting is accomplished within one hour from departure from home or place of employment, as the case may be. Persons exempted under this subdivision (a)(5) shall be required to have completed a course of study in firearms handling and training approved and supervised by the Department of Professional Regulation as prescribed by Section 28 of the Private Detective, Private Alarm, and Private Security Act of 1983, prior to becoming eligible for this exemption. The Department of Professional Regulation shall provide suitable documentation demonstrating the successful completion of the prescribed firearms training. Such documentation shall be carried at all times when such persons are in possession of a concealable weapon.

...which explains how Private Detectives can be exempted from the ban on carrying concealed handguns.

[zenten]

Here is pdf of the gun laws in Illinois.  Of special note for Dresden Files RPG is Sec. 24-2 "Exemptions", and especially Sec. 24-2(a)(5)...

...which explains how Private Detectives can be exempted from the ban on carrying concealed handguns.

Mind you, I'm pretty sure Dresden had a plot complication type deally with regards to his handgun in one of the novels.  Although he might have just not had his documentation, I'm not sure.

[fantazero]

to show you how it works in Texas

I picked up a Glock 22 on my way to picking up Tacos, took 15 minutes.
Showed my Texas CHL, filled out some paperwork, paid and left 15 minutes