Weapons and the law

[Rubycon]

Hi,
I'm thinking a lot about how to deal with the weapon laws in Germany (only for my DF-campaign, that is... ). In the books as well as in YS, wepaons are an integral part to defend (or to attack) your enemies. In the US, this seems plausible, because you have the right to own weapons and it is relatively easy to carry a weapon. In Germany, even owning weapons is strictly prohibited and carrying a weapon in the public is illigal for everyone (besides the police). So I fear that using weapons will bring the characters some trouble. On the other side, it's a part of the game - most people have no other choice to fight the monsters, haven't they?
So, any suggestions how to handle this or some experience from european players?

[citadel97501]

Sounds like a great compel to me. . .

[aardvark]

First we have this from wikipedia on Gun Politics in Germany

Firearms carry permit
Firearms carry permits (Waffenschein) entitle licensees to publicly carry legally owned weapons, loaded in a concealed or non-concealed manner. A mandatory legal and safety class and shooting proficiency tests are required to obtain such a permit. Carry permits are usually only issued to persons with a particular need for carrying a firearm. This includes some private security personnel and persons living under a raised threat-level like celebrities and politicians. They are valid up to three years and can be extended. Carrying at public events is prohibited. Licensed hunters do not need a permit to carry weapons while hunting.
[edit]Small firearms carry permit
A small firearms carry permit (Kleiner Waffenschein) was introduced in 2002. It can be obtained without having to demonstrate expert knowledge, necessity or a mandatory insurance. The only requirements are that the applicant be of legal age, trustworthy and personally adequate. It entitles the licensee to publicly carry gas pistols (both of the blank and irritant kind) and flare guns. These types of firearms are freely available to adults; only the actual carrying on public property requires the permit. Similarly to the "real" or big permit, carrying at public events is proscribed.

And second gas weapons can be tinkered to their non gas analog if you realy need this.

[Arcteryx]

I'd just do whatever provides the most entertainment, to be honest. If all movies & action novels out there had heroes or villians who followed their country's laws to the letter, there'd be a lot of boring movies out there.

[EdgeOfDreams]

Options:

-Player characters who are police or have friends among the police
-Skills like burglary, stealth, and deceit for hiding your weapons or convincing people you're licensed to carry them
-Power like channeling, evocation, claws, and strength that allow a solid damage output without needing a weapon
-Compels to get in trouble with the law, 'cause getting extra fate points is often welcome

I had a game where one player was a pure mortal gunslinger named Rain (think Kincaid, but nicer, happier, and with hippie parents).  He took an aspect "as legal as I can" or something like that, and would invoke it to declare that he had permits and licenses for whatever huge weapons he was using that day, or for bonuses on social rolls to get the cops to leave him alone.

[Rubycon]

@aardvark: That's ggod news, thank you...!
@Arcteryx: In most cases, I woul agree with you. However, as in most cases even the possesion of weapons in Germany is illegal, this can bring up many problems. And for some of these problems a simple refuse of a compel doesn't work IMO.
But I think if one of the characters has a license because of his background, most other stuff is up to roleplaying and smart using of  the weapons...

[Guldor]

I´m from Germany and there are enough people who possess weapons. I´m surely no expert, but I think small halfautomatic weapons are ok for private persons if you have a license and there some shootingclubs. At home you must store your weapons and your ammunition in two different and closed cupboards.
But you´re right that the german police would get crazy if you run around with a gun in public. I think there is a cultural dependency on this whole topic. Don´t want to offend anyone, but as I know weapons are more common in the USA, because in former times the settlers had to defend themselves. It´s some kind of proud tradition. Please correct me if I´m talking bullshit.
In Germany there was (at least the last 200 years or so) always some kind of strong ruling power and the normal guy didn`t really need a weapon. I´m telling this because perhaps you could make this some kind of theme for your campaign. Something like: "Look officer, he has a gun!". Then you could always compel this in certain situations. Even when the character has a license, it will cost him time to discuss with the police etc.... And if the character pays a fate point to circumvent the compel, the random guy in public didn`t saw it.

@Rubycon: Are you also german or is there a special reason, why you wan`t to play a story there?

[Rubycon]

No, I'm from Germany and I'm planning my camapign in Aachen. More of it shortly, I need some help anyway...

[BumblingBear]

You could use slingshots or crossbows.  Those are legal in Germany...

Or you could just have your PCs be breaking the law.  That might add story ideas too.

[zenten]

The police will only catch you if they see the gun.  So don't make it visible when in public.  The bad guys won't want to either, and they won't want to be using their powers in an obvious public way.

Now, if the issue is getting one in the first place that I'm less sure on, but since I know there are countries in Europe with much more lax gun laws it can't be that difficult to smuggle them in, right?  That's basically how illegal guns get here in Canada, they get smuggled accross the hard to defend border.

[Tsunami]

I've been playing in a Bonn based game for a while, and we mostly ignored the issue up to the point where it was interesting for the story to have the police confiscate weapons and such.

One point to keep in mind is that Weapon laws here in Germany not only apply to the PC's, but the NPC's as well.

(Knowledge of American Gun law is mostly based on tv, so please correct me if i'm wrong)
In America it's fairly easy to get a Gun. Unless you have a criminal record it is your right to have one. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Rifles don't even require waiting time as far as i know. Heck, you can buy a Gun at Walmart.
Here in Germany any and all Gun purchases (except for very weak ones) require you to get a special permit.
The idea that someone has his own "army" of armed mercenaries is basically inconceivable here. There are no paramilitary groups around here. At least none that i know of.

What I'm trying to say. Yes, the PC are limited by German Gun Law. But so are most NPC if they want to avoid drawing attention to themselves.
If they send a group of Mercenaries to assault someone, even if it's in a rural area, the police will maybe not catch them in the act, but it would be something so outlandish that it will draw national news coverage and major investigations.
(I guess that's probably the same in the US. Again, my knowledge is mostly TV based, and that's not quite reality...*g*)

Or think of something like Marcone's "place to conduct noisy business". I don't know how Americans view that in terms of realism. But for me it's totally absurd. The same goes for something like the Raith Deeps.

Ok, I'm starting to get very off topic here, but let me add one last thing.

Generally it's way more probable for something to happen unnoticed in the USA than in Germany.
The USA have about 300 million people, Germany has about 80 million. But Germany is waaay waaaay smaller.
Population density in the US is an average of 32 people per square kilometer, in Germany it's at 229.


Anyways. All that is not really important. If you want your Private Investigator PC working in Aachen or any other German City to be armed, go for it.
The Dresdenverse is not our world. There are different rules there.

If you want to really crack down on Guns and such, give your Campaign an Aspect like "Really Strict Gun Laws" and compel the hell out of your PC's. It'll be a ready source of Fate though, if you plan to present them with a lot of combat. Be ready for a lot of things like this:
GM: that biker is walking towards you, he want's a fight.
PC: Oh if i only had a Gun... Fate point please

Ok, i gotta stop now before i totally go off the rails with this post.
So long.

[DFJunkie]

American gun laws are a mess.  They vary by state and some times by city/municipality.  I live in the city of New York and it is somewhat difficult to get a permit to own a gun here and almost impossible to obtain a concealed carry permit.  Meanwhile, in Louisiana you can buy rifles and shotguns with no license, waiting, or background check.  It's actually easier than buying liquor. 

If you're concerned about realism yet some of your PCs need guns you might want to lean on some of the other elements of the setting.  For instance, we know relatively little about the Venatori, so if you attach a gun-wielding PC to them you/he could sculpt the organization to his character's needs and infer from their reputation for government influence that they can swing getting him the proper authorizations.

[Arcteryx]

@Arcteryx: In most cases, I woul agree with you. However, as in most cases even the possesion of weapons in Germany is illegal, this can bring up many problems. And for some of these problems a simple refuse of a compel doesn't work IMO.
But I think if one of the characters has a license because of his background, most other stuff is up to roleplaying and smart using of  the weapons...

I totally get that. And if that's an entertaining state to impose on the game and the players, cool. But I'm betting any action movie with awesomesauce^tm that takes place in Germany - and was made there - probably conveniently misplaced this section of the criminal code.

Hey, I'm not saying gratituous violence and a high body count is the only way to inject some fun & games into a game, but sometimes when you have to send in the ninjas (see reference in Spirit Of The Century), their ninja-foo might come off a bit weak without some arguments of the sharp-pointy-and-leadcoated persuasion.

[Pbartender]

(Knowledge of American Gun law is mostly based on tv, so please correct me if i'm wrong)
In America it's fairly easy to get a Gun. Unless you have a criminal record it is your right to have one.

As DFJunkie said, it's a mess, especially with regards to concealed carry...

Illinois (and especially Chicago, Dresden's hometown) has some of the strictest firearms regulations in the U.S.   It's a "no-issue" jurisdiction, meaning hand gun permits are not issued to civilians, nor are they recognized.  In Illinois, you cannot even "open carry".  This last spring, there was a vote on a state law to lift Illinois' concealed carry ban, which failed.  The NRA is now suing the state government over the constitutionality of the current law, saying that it violates the 2nd and 14th Amendments of the U.S. Constitution...  Whether they are right or wrong about that is left for the United States District Court to decide.

Oddly enough, it is generally considered easier to get a hold of a (illegal black market) firearm if you are a criminal, than if you aren't in Chicago...  The firearms laws in Germany are far less restrictive than they are here in Illinois.

There's actually some good articles about gun laws on Wikipedia.

[UmbraLux]

But, let's give the government some leeway...

I'm going to avoid the politics and just point out there are some significant, if subtle, differences in culture between the US and Europe.  One difference which drives some of the views you mention is a fairly endemic mistrust of "government".  Prior to 2008 the US didn't really have state sponsored corporate actors - instead of a Deutsche Bank or a Siemens dominating an industry for over a century we've had a fairly mutable corporate landscape where corporations merge, split, and even fail.  A significant driver behind that is the "laissez faire" approach to government control of the economy.  That approach is driven in part by the cultural mistrust of government.