Solutions to nerf Fly

[Todjaeger]

For the OP:  Have you, or are you playing this game in a completely different setting from something along the lines of the Dresden Files novels?

I ask, because the way I run my games, based off the impressions I gather from the novels, is that the supernatural set actively work to keep the 'mundanes' in the dark as much as possible.

With that fact in mind, a power like wings and the associated ability to fly becomes very nearly as much a disadvantage as an advantage.  Yes, but purchase additional powers, Wings could be kept 'hidden' when not in use, and yes, if when/flying the character is not subject to melee attacks from non-flying opponents.  Having said that, there are plenty of ranged attack options available like Guns, thrown of shot (Bows) Weapon attacks, Evocation attacks, Sponsored Magic, etc. 

In addition and perhaps even more importantly, if 'normals' see the character(s) doing something non-normal, like Flying...  Then all sorts of problems should occur, especially since the DFRPG is such a storytelling, as opposed to roll-playing or tactical combat game.

While it is indeed up to the individual players and groups to decide what sort of game they wish to have, ignoring the versatility of FATE and other sorts of activities (Mental or Social conflict) hunting for clues, convincing people to behave, etc. seems to be cutting out much of what made the DFRPG different.

-Cheers

[Onkel Thorsen]

Wouldn't shooting while actively flying require a supplemental action?
Just hovering takes as much effort as running.
That would penalize the shooting at least a little.
(and it would deny you cover from just about any return fire.)

[Discipol]

If you would be 3 zones away, and attempt a fly-by, you could not since it would be considered sprinting by Athletics trapping.

Another skilled called Flying would have another trapping allowing a fly-by combo. For example for each 2 zones away you fly-by, add -1 to attack and +1 to weapon damage.

[BumblingBear]

I'm with everyone who doesn't understand why fly has to be nerfed in the first place.

And it's my personal opinion that a GM who nerfs things is not working with the system well or being creative enough.  Someone with wings SHOULD be able to hover above someone with only a sword imo.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think it should be nerfed.

I just think it's worth more than one refresh.

If Spider Walk costs one refresh, Wings should cost two.

And you know what? I'd totally pay two refresh for Wings. It's worth it. It gives total immunity to a number of problems, a tactical advantage in combat, and a number of random peripheral benefits.

PS: I may be a little biased here, because I once tried to develop a jumping-based power before discovering that Wings trumped it completely.

[wyvern]

Personally, balance-wise, I'd be inclined to buff spider walk first; a simple +1 or +2 bonus to defense against maneuvers that would trip, unbalance, or cause you to move would be a nice touch, for example.  On the other hand, I'm not opposed to weaker powers existing; if I'm statting something that ought to have spider walk but not wings, I'll give it spider walk, and not really worry too much about it.
Still, from a game design point of view, spider walk (and claws and maybe a few others I'm not thinking of offhand) probably deserve some kind of small associated skill bonus.

Then again, I also subscribe to the theory that the Wings power should generally have some kind of aspect-level limitation; if you fly by means of actual wings, you can get compelled to be unable to fly in places that are too tight for your wingspan (this is one of the reasons I made sure to work out wingspan for Johann's eagle forms); if you fly by means of magic, you can get compelled to be unable to fly if someone puts a circle around you (or you're inside a threshold uninvited); and etc.  That kinda breaks down when you have both physical wings and diminutive size, though - but at that point you've got diminutive size, and the drawbacks on that seem to me to be quite enough.

[Tedronai]

That kinda breaks down when you have both physical wings and diminutive size, though - but at that point you've got diminutive size, and the drawbacks on that seem to me to be quite enough.

Like it being very nearly trivial to subject you to wind-based maneuvers/compels

[ARedthorn]

Since all our suggestions to (essentially) nerf it in play by being a more creative GM have fallen on deaf ears, I'm beginning to think the reason Discipol is so passionate.... is because he's a pure melee build in a game with a flyer, and it's starting to tick him off.

In which case, he needs to direct his GM here, and/or provide his character a little more flexibility.

We've given all the reasons in the world why, if flight is so ridiculously overpowered, it can be limited, trumped, or outright nuked. Frankly, the fact that it provides (occasional) (limited) immunity to melee-only characters isn't worth much in a world where such individuals are RARE.

I mean, really. If you live in an area that allows Conceal/Carry Weapon liscenses, how many CCW's do you think are walking around with a hidden knife instead of a gun? Even in Dresden, where the balance is a bit more fantasy and a bit less real-world, most of the things that use melee dominantly do so because they have other edges along the lines of enhanced speed or strength...
In which case, it becomes moot, because I can, offhand, think of a dozen ways they can overcome the already occasional limitation.
Why can't the speedster roll athletics to rebound off a dumpster or car, and jump a zone up... get a single solid hit or grapple in, and boom. Wings useless.
For that matter, if he needs to, I'd allow him to do it without a roll, if he spends a fate point to temporarily have flight (per temp. powers rules), Fly for 1 round representing a jump.
The powerhouse can throw anything, or use a telephone pole that reaches into the next zone up (a little unorthodox, but I'd allow it).

Course, the flyer could go more than one zone up, but then there ought to be some SERIOUS ranged penalties- and at that point, how is he any more overpowered than the pure mortal sniper, who always sits a zone or two away, in stealth, with a high-powered sniper or hunting rifle? He's also immune to melee, capable of reaching out and touching someone from far enough away that even if noticed, whatever came after him would have to get to him AND find him... and he's doing it all for a [+2] (pure mortal) and a couple decent skills (guns and stealth).
Should we nerf him?

[zenten]

I think the whole "you can't fly indoors unless it's a very very large room" needs to be emphasized more.  Fly would be useless in the majority of fights my group has had.

[BumblingBear]

Fly should be 2 refresh if you can fly without wings.

But the book specifically states that if you have fly, you have visible wings.

That is kind of a big drawback.  It means you either cannot be seen in public or you need other power to hide your wings that cost more refresh.

[Sanctaphrax]

Human Guise is free.

If visibility is supposed to be a downside, then that should be changed.

Aspect compels are just as much a good thing as they are a bad thing, so they don't make a good drawback.

And if you have to nerf something in play, then it's undercosted.

It's possible that Spider Walk just sucks, but it seems to me more likely that Wings is a touch too good.

I mean, it's not gamebreaking or anything. Just a little too inexpensive.

[Tedronai]

It's a heck of a lot less gamebreaking than thaumaturgy...

[noclue]

This whole thing is silly. If someone has flight, just set up conflicts based on the knowledge that they have flight.

[Becq]

What stops me, the ground-pounder too dumb to bring a ranged weapon to a modern fight, from picking up a rock/brick/whatever and pegging the flyer with it -- either for straight damage or to perform a maneuver to inflict the aspect "Knocked out of the sky" on the target (followed by an immediate tag for effect so my buddies can pound/tackle the guy on their actions)?

I dunno, I don't think flight is all that much of a problem...

[Sanctaphrax]

@noclue: You could very easily use the exact same argument for catchless Physical Immunity. But nobody is arguing that catchless PI should cost 1 refresh. Just because it can be dealt with doesn't mean that it shouldn't be appropriately costed.

@Becq: If you've got Weapons, that works. The Fists guy is SOL, though.