Solutions to nerf Fly

[The Mighty Buzzard]

And if you have to nerf something in play, then it's undercosted.

I prefer to think of it as not nerfing the enemies tactical abilities.  Even a really, really stupid person could figure out "get where they can't shoot you from way up there until you can find a way to even the odds"

It's possible that Spider Walk just sucks, but it seems to me more likely that Wings is a touch too good.

Nah, one's just better indoors and one's better outdoors.  Truthfully, they're both pretty useless.

I mean, it's not gamebreaking or anything. Just a little too inexpensive.

It's only inexpensive if everyone you fight is too dense to come in out of the rain.  If that's the case, it's not the power's fault but the GM's.

[Arcteryx]

If a player has wings, it is a love note to his GM - it says give me skies to fly in, enemies to strafe on the ground, and aerial opposition that I can fight. Why not? Give it to him. Lots of it. If a power is too cheap or undercosted for the player... well, it is for the NPC as well.

[BumblingBear]

miss post! arg!

[Radijs]

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-05-28

[Sanctaphrax]

@Mighty Buzzard: If your power forces many opponents to flee outright, it should cost more than one refresh. That's a big advantage in a city, and a game-ender if you end up in a farmer's field somehow.

And more or less automatic success at 3 of Athletics's 6 trappings is pretty good too.

@Arcteryx: Look, it being easy to deal with doesn't mean it's not a problem. And if it's equally unfair for everyone, it's still a problem.

@Radjis: Great comic that unfortunately has no grounding in the rules of this game. A flying character is no easier to shoot than any other character, unless you start meddling with the default rules.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

@Mighty Buzzard: If your power forces many opponents to flee outright

It shouldn't though. Only the very foolish who take no ranged skills or powers.  If it does it's not an overpowering of the skill but just plain bad GMing.  Or the encounter was supposed to be easy I suppose.  Bear in mind too that while your opponents may be able to take cover against a flying opponent, the flier can't.

@Arcteryx: Look, it being easy to deal with doesn't mean it's not a problem. And if it's equally unfair for everyone, it's still a problem.

The same could be said for magic or almost any other power.

@Radjis: Great comic that unfortunately has no grounding in the rules of this game. A flying character is no easier to shoot than any other character, unless you start meddling with the default rules.

Yes, yes they are.  They can't declare+tag cover and can be seen and targeted by pretty much every player for two zones in any direction.  On the ground that is far from the case unless you're in an empty field.  They're also far more vulnerable to air and force based magic, essentially offering a free tag then a sticky aspect to anyone who wants to use it for as long as they stay in the air.

Player: immobility spirit block at the duck's wings. Ten shifts so I'll take the three stress as a minor consequence (headache) and one physical, none to duration, and I'm tagging the Made Myself An Easy Target aspect for a free +2. *rolls happen*  Bleh, I'll take all four worth of miss in backlash and split it between mental and a minor mental consequence (my brain's tired); stupid dice.  Hey, he's two zones up so what 100 feet at +5 stress per 10 feet?  Huh, look at that.  He went and splattered himself all over the ground.

The above could be done by a noob (-7) wizard specialized to use spirit without using any FP at all.  Air would work just as well though.

In the end though, it all boils down to the GM and to the tactical imagination of the players/npcs to decide how much of an advantage wings are or aren't, the same as with most powers.  Personally, I find it easy enough to deal with that I don't even see it as a tactical advantage at all, more as a story advantage.


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[Sanctaphrax]

There's nothing in the rules making it easier to Declare + tag aspects before or against a flying character. It says nothing about it in the power description and ruling that it is the case anyway is not what the rules tell you to do. It's not against the rules either, but it has no more basis than Declare + tagging some form of occult distraction against a guy with Supernatural Senses.

Magic and other powers are generally balanced against their refresh cost. The question is, is Wings? I think not quite.

There are plenty of foes who can't fight a flier. Looking in OW, we see werewolves, the majority of vampires, several Denarians, Sue the zombie t-rex, normal zombies, one or two types of fey, and probably some others that I can't remember right now. If Wings makes those guys useless (or nearly so) against you, the answer is not to never let the guy with Wings fight them. The answer is to make Wings expensive enough that the usefulness against those characters is reasonable.

Oh, and one other thing: can you do me a favour? Go over your arguments and try to find one that couldn't be used to justify Physical Immunity with a catch of silver being available for the cost of one refresh.

I'm pretty sure that all of your arguments work to justify that.

Which shows the problem. You have shown that a GM can deal with the effects of Wings in game. But what you haven't shown is that that means that Wings is balanced at its current cost. If you can show that, I'll agree with you. I don't think that you can.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

There's nothing in the rules making it easier to Declare + tag aspects before or against a flying character.

There's very little in the rules that says when you can invoke/tag any aspect.  It's assumed you'll be able to figure out extremely basic things like that yourself.  It's no less reasonable to be able to invoke/tag Flying than it is to invoke/tag Covering His Eyes.

Magic and other powers are generally balanced against their refresh cost. The question is, is Wings? I think not quite.

Yes, you obviously see wings as far more valuable than I do.  You must fight exclusively outside in open fields.

If Wings makes those guys useless (or nearly so) against you, the answer is not to never let the guy with Wings fight them. The answer is to make Wings expensive enough that the usefulness against those characters is reasonable.

Or, you know, let them be easy to beat and not craft them into the story as an epic threat.  Myself, if I really wanted those to be a threat to the players, I'd give the zombies, werewolves, red and white vamps guns.  Let Sue and the Denarians throw cars at them.  Let the fae, and any of the others who can, use magic.  Don't make your npcs unthinking targets*, make them an actual challenge.

* Zombies yeah but their master isn't.

Oh, and one other thing: can you do me a favour? Go over your arguments and try to find one that couldn't be used to justify Physical Immunity with a catch of silver being available for the cost of one refresh.

Straw man argument on silver but I'll give it a go for flight.  Physical Immunity -8.  The Catch +6: +2 only vs melee-ranged attacks, +2 accessible to anyone, +2 anyone will notice immediately.  Human Form +1 (Required based on the GM ruling that bigass wings are too large to hide with Human Guise or Flesh Mask).  There you go, -1.

Which shows the problem. You have shown that a GM can deal with the effects of Wings in game. But what you haven't shown is that that means that Wings is balanced at its current cost. If you can show that, I'll agree with you. I don't think that you can.

I really don't need to.  It's in the RAW.  Personally, I don't care if something in the RAW is balanced or even fair.  I just take it as a fact of life like gravity and deal with it.  If your players don't like it then house rule it otherwise.  If you don't like it and they do, deal or piss off your players and house rule it otherwise over their objections.

[Arcteryx]

@Arcteryx: Look, it being easy to deal with doesn't mean it's not a problem. And if it's equally unfair for everyone, it's still a problem.

Problem: flying thing. Here's my boom-stick. See? No longer a problem. Totally not unfair at all.

[Masurao]

Perhaps a bit of perspective might help here, but first off: I know DFRPG is fantasy and I know that we are talking about supernatural stuff, but it is also said often that a lot of supernatural things are grounded in the natural laws too.

If a human would be to fly, he'd need a wingspan of about 15 meter (not talking about changes in physiology and stuff, y'know, supernatural and all). For visual benefit, look at the Quetzalcoatlus, which had about the same wingspan:
Look at the green one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quetzscale1.png & http://blog.webosaurs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/quetzalcoatlus2.jpg

Just think about how much room that requires, just to get airborne, without even maneuvering. So, depending on how much reality you demand, Wings might seems overpowered. But even if you require only 10 feet of wingspan, that still is a lot of room indoors.

If you read Wings as 'you have wings, therefore you can fly', then you do the same as 'you have a gun, you can shoot things'. Yet, with the gun we all seem to realize what the realistic consequences are of shooting at just about anything. But with Wings we seem to lose sight of that...

[Discipol]

You could have some sort of a jet pack instead of wings.

If you magic combat, you will probably go all out including wings. My problem is game mechanics of wings.

[Masurao]

You could have some sort of a jet pack instead of wings.

Actually, no, according to the description of the power Wings:

Description: You have wings of some sort—
gossamer as a faerie, leathery and batlike as a
demon—enabling you to fly.
Musts: Your wings are always present and
visible unless you have an ability (Flesh Mask,
shapeshifting powers, or the application of
a Glamour) allowing you to hide them. You
should define the appearance of the wings when
you take this ability.
Skills Affected: Athletics.
Effects:
Flight. You can fly, eliminating or reducing
certain kinds of borders (page 212) and
enabling travel upwards into zones (page 197)
that can’t normally be reached. Winged flight
is governed by the Athletics skill, just as
running is.

If you want a jet pack, you are circumventing some of the drawbacks of Wings (and probably with the expres reason of doing so) and should pay more than 1 Refresh.

[Discipol]

Description: You have wings of some sort—

So you are not a pure mortal, thats the price.

[Masurao]

So, could we say that a jetpack could be a combination Aspects, with Craftmanship and Resources? Just out of curiosity, because a jet-pack would not be magic/supernatural, per se, but current knowledge and technology can't do it jet yet. Or are we dabbling in the realm of Pseudo-Science/Not-Quite-Magic-Nor-Science then?

[The Mighty Buzzard]

So, could we say that a jetpack could be a combination Aspects, with Craftmanship and Resources? Just out of curiosity, because a jet-pack would not be magic/supernatural, per se, but current knowledge and technology can't do it jet yet. Or are we dabbling in the realm of Pseudo-Science/Not-Quite-Magic-Nor-Science then?

Or we could just say that it's plain old ordinary mortal ferromancy that anyone with the Resources could purchase.  It pretty much is.  Current tech doesn't allow for taking your hands off the handles to shoot people or cast spells though.  If you want it to be beyond what's currently available tech-wise, you'll have to take that up with the GM.