Fourth Law of Magic Help

[Richard_Chilton]

Every time the fourth law is brought up, the sleep spell is mentioned.

It is possible to put someone to sleep physically - call it a physical takeout with the right spell.  It doesn't have to be done mentally.

Richard

[Masurao]

I would think the Sleep spell is rather well-established to be in the 'okay' area, if not by people here, then by the novels. Or did I miss something?

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Every time the fourth law is brought up, the sleep spell is mentioned.

It is possible to put someone to sleep physically - call it a physical takeout with the right spell.  It doesn't have to be done mentally.

Anesthesiologists do it every day, I don't see why an air evocator couldn't by creating the gas.  Or a water evocator couldn't by hitting them with ether.  Fire, earth, and spirit you're on your own with.

[sinker]

Anesthesiologists do it every day, I don't see why an air evocator couldn't by creating the gas.  Or a water evocator couldn't by hitting them with ether.  Fire, earth, and spirit you're on your own with.

See, my inclination is just to say it's magic. Anesthesiologists put a lot of effort into making sure that they knock someone out, but don't kill them. Making that comparison against something that in theory doesn't have really fine control (evocation is supposed to be pretty crude when compared to thaumaturgy) just breaks the suspension of disbelief for me. I'm totally fine with "Magic sleep gas" that knocks people out but doesn't kill them though, but mostly because it's magic (and not an attempt at mirroring delicate science).

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.  You could easily put them out of the effective area of the gas by having them fall to the floor when the gas was chest level and above.  I'd just require a plausible explanation and call it good as a GM.  As a player I'd probably get all anal about it and spend half the week thinking about how best to do it in my spare moments.

[vultur]

The limits on the Third and Fourth Laws are not entirely clear in the novels.

Harry mentions an "unlicensed mind-fog" in SK, which suggests there's a legal way to do that spell, which is surprising as it seems pretty mind-effect-y. Harry's sleep spells to give rest to people suffering from mental attack (eg the lawyer in TC with White Court damage) are mentioned as "grey magic" but accepted/allowed by the Council. Also, communication-only telepathy spells seem to be OK (Harry and Elaine's is clearly something they'd agreed on beforehand, but the Merlin uses a mass telepathy spell in TC).

On the Third Law, sinker is right that there doesn't seem much difference between Molly's looking in Luccio's head in TC and the Senior Council's later checking for mental influence. I'd then suggest that this kind of thing isn't "Lawbreaker" against the Laws, but unless you're someone they REALLY trust (Senior Council, high-ranking Warden etc.) the Wardens will get after you.

[sinker]

On the Third Law, sinker is right that there doesn't seem much difference between Molly's looking in Luccio's head in TC and the Senior Council's later checking for mental influence. I'd then suggest that this kind of thing isn't "Lawbreaker" against the Laws, but unless you're someone they REALLY trust (Senior Council, high-ranking Warden etc.) the Wardens will get after you.

Actually personally I'd say that's due to experience (as well as a compel). The senior council are experienced wizards. They know what to do to check for influence without breaking the laws. Molly has experience primarily with breaking the laws. She likely does not know how to do it without at least getting close to breaking the law (especially since she has at least one aspect that is twisted by lawbreaking by then).

[Radijs]

I'd personally approach truth spells from the other angle. Creating a spell that would let me reveal perfectly whenever someone would tell a lie.

And depending on how sure I'd want to be I'd set up a spell to read someone's thoughts or whatever social cues people give up when they tell a lie.
The first method would still be a 4th law violation But the second one would be safe for everyone. Though I am not sure how well it would work on supernatural creatures.

Do fey have the same emotional cues as humans? What about vampires, ghouls, ghosts? But then again that sorry lot don't fall under the 4th law so mind-rape galore

[zenten]

I see what the Senior Council did as using The Sight.